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Thread: What did the Early Slavs look like?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velislav View Post
    No, just the opposite - they were southern people that imagined all the barbarians in the north to be red haired and blue eyed. It is the same thing as some modern Europeans that imagine the Chinese people to be yellow...
    Yeah, I was gonna say. I read it wrong.
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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velislav View Post
    On the other hand the red hair cannot be a Slavic trait because it's really exotic in Eastern Europe.
    Modern national averages do not necessarily reflect individual ancient and medieval subgroups. It is quite possible that a medieval writer encountered a specific Slavic subgroup in which red hair was common.

    Two of my brothers have red hair. We are all entirely of southeastern Polish ancestry.
    Quote Originally Posted by Velislav View Post
    I kinda think the ancient Slavs were something in between all modern Slavic people, maybe the Western Ukrainians and the Slovaks could be closer to them. Talking about phenotypes I think that Alpine, Nordic, Dinaric/Noric, Pontid and some Baltid/Carpathid were in the mix, although most of these phenotypes are not exclusively Slavic and their roots could be older than most of the ethnic divisions in Europe.
    Do you have any specific evidence at all for your speculation? Isn't it equally possible that the initial Proto-Slavic "core" did have some specific phenotypical characteristics--if only through genetic drift--but that early pattern was diffused as the "core" progressively incorporated locals during expansion?

    Perhaps the Udmurts ("the people with the reddest hair in the world") are an example of such genetic drift?
    Last edited by lgmayka; 07-05-2017 at 10:54 AM.

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    Also the following doesn't have anything to do with skin color. It's about cardinal directions.

    5. Constantine Porphyrogennetos (10th century):

    About ancestors of Balkan Croats and ancestors of Balkan Serbs:

    "(...) their ancestors were Pagan Croats and Serbs, known also as White [Croats and Serbs]. Great Croatia, called also White [Croatia], until today is still Pagan, just like neighbouring [Lusatian] Serbs [Sorbs] (...)"

  4. #14
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    Since we already have Early Slavic autosomal DNA, we could take a look at their phenotype SNPs. Some Early Slavic samples (before 1000 AD):

    RISE568, 600-900 AD
    RISE569, 660-770 AD
    Niem_13, 900-1000 AD (Y-DNA: I2a1b2-L621+)
    Niem_18, 900-1000 AD (Y-DNA: J2a1a-L26+)

    And many other samples from Niemcza dated to 900-1000 AD:

    https://onedrive.live.com/?cid=9fe9f...B9sVPAGzZvekAU

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...977#post252977

    Check also this thread:

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post174129
    Last edited by Tomenable; 07-05-2017 at 02:26 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Niem_18, 900-1000 AD (Y-DNA: J2a1a-L26+)
    Common among Ashkenazi? If so , then Ashkenazi were in Poland between 900-1000AD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lgmayka View Post
    Modern national averages do not necessarily reflect individual ancient and medieval subgroups. It is quite possible that a medieval writer encountered a specific Slavic subgroup in which red hair was common.

    Two of my brothers have red hair. We are all entirely of southeastern Polish ancestry.

    Do you have any specific evidence at all for your speculation? Isn't it equally possible that the initial Proto-Slavic "core" did have some specific phenotypical characteristics--if only through genetic drift--but that early pattern was diffused as the "core" progressively incorporated locals during expansion?
    Actually I believe modern populations resemble Medieval populations, why not? 1000 years are not that much for drastic changes. However, I'm not saying 100% of the modern populations are the same as their ancestors from 1000 years ago. It's true that the Slavic people absorbed Germanic people, Balts, Scythians, Thracians, Finn-Ugrics over the centuries, no one can deny that. But after all there are common physical types among all modern Slavs, somewhere more from one, somewhere more from something else but the types that I've mentioned could be seen among all Slavs more or less. That's why I think all these types were present among the Ancient Slavs - because every Slavic nation has such looks. The balance between them is different because of some later influences - higher Baltic and Nordic phenotypes among some Slavs because of Germanic and Baltic influences; Dinaric and Med in some because of Thraco-Illyrians and Scythians... etc. It's cool that you have a red hair but why you think that comes from your Slavic ancestors - we all have some influences. I mean no offense to you saying that.

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  9. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velislav View Post
    Actually I believe modern populations resemble Medieval populations, why not? 1000 years are not that much for drastic changes. However, I'm not saying 100% of the modern populations are the same as their ancestors from 1000 years ago. It's true that the Slavic people absorbed Germanic people, Balts, Scythians, Thracians, Finn-Ugrics over the centuries, no one can deny that. But after all there are common physical types among all modern Slavs, somewhere more from one, somewhere more from something else but the types that I've mentioned could be seen among all Slavs more or less. That's why I think all these types were present among the Ancient Slavs - because every Slavic nation has such looks. The balance between them is different because of some later influences - higher Baltic and Nordic phenotypes among some Slavs because of Germanic and Baltic influences; Dinaric and Med in some because of Thraco-Illyrians and Scythians... etc. It's cool that you have a red hair but why you think that comes from your Slavic ancestors - we all have some influences. I mean no offense to you saying that.
    Phenotype can change in populations if populations are mixed with other populations. Physical anthropologists have shown on several occasions that the shape of cranium and height of populations can change in a matter of several generations subject to diet, social and various environmental factors. The shape of cranium in certaion eastern Slavic populations changed from mesocephalic to brachiocephalic between 12-17th centuries in the regions that experienced least migrations.

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  11. #18
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    In eastern Slavia there's a stereotype about typical phenotype of Slavs – light brown hair and gray eyes.

    In southern Europe this phenotype would be considered blond or dirty blond. In northern countries blond is usually white, while light brown hair does actually have a reddish shade.

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  13. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velislav View Post
    Actually I believe modern populations resemble Medieval populations, why not?
    You are apparently assuming, in advance, that all hundreds of millions of Slavs living today descend from some tiny tribe of 1600 years ago. That is demographically absurd. Whoever the "core" Slavic tribes may have been or whatever they may have looked like, they clearly assimilated a host of large local populations across half a continent. You have shown absolutely no evidence for your statements, only a priori assumptions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Velislav View Post
    But after all there are common physical types among all modern Slavs, somewhere more from one, somewhere more from something else but the types that I've mentioned could be seen among all Slavs more or less. That's why I think all these types were present among the Ancient Slavs - because every Slavic nation has such looks.
    Can you cite specific recent scientific papers supporting your elaborate hypothesis of Slavic phenotypes? Or are you essentially just imagining this based on your own personal impressions of the people you have personally met? Are you a certified forensic expert in these matters? Do you realize that modern scientific papers put very little stock in such arguable phenotypical classifications?
    Quote Originally Posted by Velislav View Post
    It's cool that you have a red hair but why you think that comes from your Slavic ancestors - we all have some influences. I mean no offense to you saying that.
    You are throwing away documentary evidence (written sources) in order to fit your a priori assumptions. Please re-read Waldemar's post (#4) in this thread.
    Last edited by lgmayka; 07-06-2017 at 10:19 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Volat View Post
    In eastern Slavia there's a stereotype about typical phenotype of Slavs – light brown hair and gray eyes.

    In southern Europe this phenotype would be considered blond or dirty blond. In northern countries blond is usually white, while light brown hair does actually have a reddish shade.
    This hair colour is also common among modern eastern Slavs


    Last edited by Volat; 07-06-2017 at 04:24 AM.

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