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Thread: What did the Early Slavs look like?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    Slavs hardly have any kind of Scythian/Sarmatian ancestry.
    I do score Scytho-Sarmatian in K36 nMonte with a few hundred ancient samples (so I don't think it is a coincidence, because nMonte picks them up from among a huge number of samples - this is not a random choice). However, I get only ca. 5-10% of this admixture (depending on the model).

    ==========

    For example when using samples dated to 1500-5000 years ago (1.5 - 5 kya), I get the following:

    [1] "distance%=6.733 / distance=0.06733"

    3kyaLBA_Sudovia_RISE598 34.25
    3kyaLBA_Hungary_BR2 19.90
    4kyaBA_Unetice_Germany_I0115 13.85
    4kyaEBA_Wielkopolska_RISE431 7.00
    IA_Wielbark_Maslomecz5 6.95
    4kyaBA_Hungary_RISE371 6.40
    IA_Hungary_IR1 4.10
    IA_ScythianZevakino_Ze6 2.85
    4kyaMN1_Latvia_Zvej26 2.30
    4kyaMBA_Armenia_RISE416 1.00
    4kyaCWC_Germany_I0103 0.80
    4kyaBA_Sintashta_RISE395 0.60

    And when using samples from period 1000-3000 years ago, including Early Medieval Slavs, I get:

    [1] "distance%=6.1784 / distance=0.061784"

    Slavic_RISE569 23.70
    Sudovia_RISE598 21.10
    Slavic_Markowice7 16.40
    Slavic_Niemcza34 16.25
    Wielbark_Kowalewko55 9.65
    Sarmatian_I0574 8.75
    Hungary_BR2 3.20
    Wielbark_Kowalewko22 0.55
    Armenia_RISE412 0.30
    Mycenaean_I9041 0.10

    When using samples from 1500-3000 years ago (no Slavs and no samples older than 3 kya):

    [1] "distance%=7.5255 / distance=0.075255"

    Sudovia RISE598 - 35.10 %
    Hungary BR2 - 21.20 %
    Hungary IR1 - 15.80 %
    Mezhovskaya RISE523 - 12.95 %
    Wielbark Kowalewko55 - 11.65 %
    Wielbark Maslomecz5 - 2.65 %
    Wielbark Kowalewko22 - 0.30 %
    Mycenaean I9006 - 0.35 %

    Scytho-Sarmatians get replaced by Steppe Mezhovskaya (which might be ancestral to them).

    =========

    Two other models:

    Ca. 5000-3000 years ago:

    [1] "distance%=7.012 / distance=0.07012"

    Sudovia RISE598 - 33.35 %
    Hungary BR2 - 25.75 %
    Sintashta RISE395 - 11.10 %
    Poland Unetice RISE431 - 10.10 %
    Germany Unetice I0115 - 7.30 %
    Latvia Corded Ware Zvej28 - 5.00 %
    Czechia Bell Beaker RISE567 - 2.70 %
    Hungary RISE371 - 2.30 %
    Armenia RISE416 - 1.65 %
    Okunevo RISE516 - 0.65 %
    Anatolia Kumtepe4 - 0.10 %

    Ca. 7000-5000 years ago:

    [1] "distance%=13.5243 / distance=0.135243"

    Stalingrad Steppe RISE555 - 23.70 %
    Poltavka Culture I0432 - 21.10 %
    Neolithic Sweden Gokhem5 - 19.30 %
    Comb Ceramic Estonia MA974 - 15.15 %
    Yamnaya Culture I0439 - 9.80 %
    Latvia Hunter-Gatherer HG1 - 7.00 %
    Latvia Hunter-Gatherer HG3 - 3.95 %

    RISE555 is an Early Bronze Age Steppe sample from Stalingrad Quarry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    We don't know how Scythians/Sarmatians in Ukraine looked exactly like, but they should be rich in R1a-Z93, which is almost non-existing among modern day Slavs.
    This admixture could be mediated mainly via females.

    And Sarmatians had a lot of R1b as well, not just R1a-Z93. It is also fair to say, that we don't know where did R1a-M458 originate, because there are no any Pre-Medieval samples so far.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 09-19-2017 at 10:23 AM.

  2. #32
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    ^^^^
    I'm from Wielkopolska (as well as all of my great-grandparents) so it is cool, that RISE431 showed up.

    This sample was excavated literally just a few kilometers from where some of my ancestors were born.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    I do score Scytho-Sarmatian in K36 nMonte with a few hundred ancient samples (so I don't think it is a coincidence, because nMonte picks them up from among a huge number of samples - this is not a random choice). However, I get only ca. 5-10% of this admixture (depending on the model).

    ==========

    For example when using samples dated to 1500-5000 years ago (1.5 - 5 kya), I get the following:

    [1] "distance%=6.733 / distance=0.06733"

    3kyaLBA_Sudovia_RISE598 34.25
    3kyaLBA_Hungary_BR2 19.90
    4kyaBA_Unetice_Germany_I0115 13.85
    4kyaEBA_Wielkopolska_RISE431 7.00
    IA_Wielbark_Maslomecz5 6.95
    4kyaBA_Hungary_RISE371 6.40
    IA_Hungary_IR1 4.10
    IA_ScythianZevakino_Ze6 2.85
    4kyaMN1_Latvia_Zvej26 2.30
    4kyaMBA_Armenia_RISE416 1.00
    4kyaCWC_Germany_I0103 0.80
    4kyaBA_Sintashta_RISE395 0.60

    And when using samples from period 1000-3000 years ago, including Early Medieval Slavs, I get:

    [1] "distance%=6.1784 / distance=0.061784"

    Slavic_RISE569 23.70
    Sudovia_RISE598 21.10
    Slavic_Markowice7 16.40
    Slavic_Niemcza34 16.25
    Wielbark_Kowalewko55 9.65
    Sarmatian_I0574 8.75
    Hungary_BR2 3.20
    Wielbark_Kowalewko22 0.55
    Armenia_RISE412 0.30
    Mycenaean_I9041 0.10

    When using samples from 1500-3000 years ago (no Slavs and no samples older than 3 kya):

    [1] "distance%=7.5255 / distance=0.075255"

    Sudovia RISE598 - 35.10 %
    Hungary BR2 - 21.20 %
    Hungary IR1 - 15.80 %
    Mezhovskaya RISE523 - 12.95 %
    Wielbark Kowalewko55 - 11.65 %
    Wielbark Maslomecz5 - 2.65 %
    Wielbark Kowalewko22 - 0.30 %
    Mycenaean I9006 - 0.35 %

    Scytho-Sarmatians get replaced by Steppe Mezhovskaya (which might be ancestral to them).

    =========

    Two other models:

    Ca. 5000-3000 years ago:

    [1] "distance%=7.012 / distance=0.07012"

    Sudovia RISE598 - 33.35 %
    Hungary BR2 - 25.75 %
    Sintashta RISE395 - 11.10 %
    Poland Unetice RISE431 - 10.10 %
    Germany Unetice I0115 - 7.30 %
    Latvia Corded Ware Zvej28 - 5.00 %
    Czechia Bell Beaker RISE567 - 2.70 %
    Hungary RISE371 - 2.30 %
    Armenia RISE416 - 1.65 %
    Okunevo RISE516 - 0.65 %
    Anatolia Kumtepe4 - 0.10 %

    Ca. 7000-5000 years ago:

    [1] "distance%=13.5243 / distance=0.135243"

    Stalingrad Steppe RISE555 - 23.70 %
    Poltavka Culture I0432 - 21.10 %
    Neolithic Sweden Gokhem5 - 19.30 %
    Comb Ceramic Estonia MA974 - 15.15 %
    Yamnaya Culture I0439 - 9.80 %
    Latvia Hunter-Gatherer HG1 - 7.00 %
    Latvia Hunter-Gatherer HG3 - 3.95 %

    RISE555 is an Early Bronze Age Steppe sample from Stalingrad Quarry.



    This admixture could be mediated mainly via females.

    And Sarmatians had a lot of R1b as well, not just R1a-Z93. It is also fair to say, that we don't know where did R1a-M458 originate, because there are no any Pre-Medieval samples so far.
    Scoring something on nmonte does not mean, that you have any actual ancestry from it. Scythians/Sarmatians are very much romanticised and not so important like many people believe them to be. Except of Tatars and Ossetians i don't believe anyone in Europe has significant Sarmatian ancestry. But some Sarmatian y-dna can be found in tiny traces in Europe even in countries like Spain, England,..
    Y-DNA: R1a> R-M417> R-Z645> R-Z93> R-Z94> R-Y3> R-L657> R-Y4> R-Y6> R-Y5> R-Y920*

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  5. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brent.B View Post
    I am curious what the Early Slavs looked like. When I say Early Slavs, Im referring to the Prague-Penkov-Kolochin complex.

    I've read about ancient writings from the Byzantines and Arabs that say the Slavs were "ruddy" or "white" with fair complexion and hair. But that is about as much as I know.
    Modern day Slavs including East Slavs are definitely not blonde on average and have darker hair colours than North Germans or Scandinavians, but similar complexion and eye colours. Even the genetically most northern/steppe shifted Slavs are darker on average than most North Germanics, who actually carry less EHG/WHG than most East Slavs. But phenotypes are quite complicated and we don't know all genetic factors, which determine them. In my opinion Proto-Slavs were mainly light brown on average with many having blonde or dark/black hairs.
    Last edited by Coldmountains; 09-19-2017 at 11:25 AM.
    Y-DNA: R1a> R-M417> R-Z645> R-Z93> R-Z94> R-Y3> R-L657> R-Y4> R-Y6> R-Y5> R-Y920*

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    [1] "distance%=6.733 / distance=0.06733"

    [1] "distance%=6.1784 / distance=0.061784"

    [1] "distance%=7.5255 / distance=0.075255"

    [1] "distance%=7.012 / distance=0.07012"

    [1] "distance%=13.5243 / distance=0.135243"
    These are all incredibly bad fits, though. I've never used nMonte with ADMIXTURE runs but if the distances are anything like with the Global-10 PCA; they're all really bad. I'm surprised they're that bad, actually. :-|

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