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Thread: A new paper on Ashkenazi Jews.

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    wow huge italian admixture in sefhardic
    by your model
    25% tuscan + 10% bergamo nice
    probably roman empire converts thats why they share signatures
    which sefhardic did you used mororocan jews ?
    or turkish bulgarian jews

    regards
    adam
    Well the Italian admixture often goes up to ~37% in Ashkenazim, it really depends on the populations you're using to proxy the admixture (especially if you're using ancient populations, the contrast tends to be greater). At this point, I think the data suggests Western Jews are mostly Judean (~55% to ~60%) and Roman (~25% to ~35%) in origin. This is hard to reconcile with the fact that Roman Jewry seems to have been Greek-speaking, still, that's what the data suggests. The Sephardic reference is from Turkey BTW.

    p.s
    the slavic admixture is probably 8-10% not 13% as you mentioned correctly
    anyway it is there sefhardic lack it
    and aschenazi lack the 6% iberian fit in the sefhardic and the 10% bergamo ....
    they share the middle eastern elments
    levant neolithic
    + iran chalcolitic

    we can't ran away from partly roman origins to the sefhardic jews as long has bergamo there ....
    Yeah I think the Eastern Euro is inflated by a factor of two, like I said this also depends on the populations used to proxy the admixture, in this case the contrast is far greater because I'm using ancient populations so it's more likely to interpret some of the more northerly stuff as Eastern European. In other fits, the Eastern Euro goes down to 8% (sometimes even lower than that), here's an example (remember Avar should be added to Samaritan, it's only there to improve the fit):

    [1] "distance%=0.3129 / distance=0.003129"

    Ashkenazi_Jew:average

    Samaritan 52.70
    Italian_Bergamo:average 31.55
    Lithuanian:average 8.35
    Avar:average 7.40


    It can even disappear in some fits (also notice how Avar fades away):


    [1] "distance%=0.3732 / distance=0.003732"

    Ashkenazi_Jew:average

    Druze:average 61
    Italian_Bergamo:average 39


    Western Jews seem to be mainly Judean/Israelite + Roman/Italian with minor local admixture, the latter varies in the sense that it is inflated in some individuals and nearly absent in others.

    Quote Originally Posted by wandering_amorite View Post
    FWIW Northern Italians tend to come out very close to Iberians on most calculators, and could possibly be a better proxy for pre-Moorish invasion Iberian ancestry than contemporary Iberians.
    North Italians seem to be close to Tuscans first and foremost, and the latter are quite close to Albanians and, in turn, Mainland Greeks. Kind of doubt they're a good proxy for what pre-Moorish Iberia looked like, even the Basque seem to be a better contender.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 07-03-2017 at 08:21 PM.
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    by the way a moroocan jew took i genea test
    https://www.igenea.com/en/home anyway they are using ftdna algoritem
    https://www.igenea.com/en/order/basic
    he scored:
    77% sefhardic

    9% iberia

    4% west central europe

    5% north africa
    don't remember the rest ....
    p.s
    so maybe there was huge sefhardic migration to mororoco ....
    Last edited by kingjohn; 07-03-2017 at 08:44 PM.
    eurogenes k13
    Lebanese_Muslim + Lebanese_Muslim + Serbian + Tuscan @ 1.235682
    do

    AJ + RO + Samaritan + South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 2.93306
    geno 2 next genration after fixed rounding error : i am 99% human + 1% archaic caveman
    dodecad k7b
    1 Druze + Lithuanian + S_Italian_Sicilian + Samaritians @ 0.000000 Hidden Content Hidden Content

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    agamemnon can you check indian jews
    or yemenite jews ?

    i am very intrested what they would fit
    kudos for all your work
    i also saw that you did iraqi and iranian jews much appricated and they have mesopotamian admixture probably as you said
    regards
    Adam
    eurogenes k13
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    do

    AJ + RO + Samaritan + South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 2.93306
    geno 2 next genration after fixed rounding error : i am 99% human + 1% archaic caveman
    dodecad k7b
    1 Druze + Lithuanian + S_Italian_Sicilian + Samaritians @ 0.000000 Hidden Content Hidden Content

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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    Sefhatic Jews where kicked out of Iberia ~1480AD and this includes Spanish Morocco and Algeria ( oran )..........most went to Netherlands and then to Britain and others through the town of valencia went to Venice ( genoese took them to Nice, and ligurian lands ) , Venice sent them either to Germany with the German merchants or took them to the Levant but the truly wealthy Jews went to ferrara and Tuscany. The rich Jews due to the law in Venice of not allowing usury ( loaning money for profit ) departed for central italy.
    So to me sephatic jews in Tuscany should be high , towns like livorno, Pisa and Lucca, .....................Bergamo ( near switzerland and austria ) seems odd,
    Be cognizant, that the Sefaradi-from Spain/Portugal element was only one of the modern Italian Jewish community. The Italqim, descendants of original Jews who came from Israel, are the "real" Italian Jews; Some Romaniote (originally Greek Speaking Jews also descendants of original Jews from Israel) lived in certain southern locales, Ashkenazim, as Northern Italy is part of the Ashkenazi core area, and Levantine Jews and N. African Sefaradi migrants.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    Well the Italian admixture often goes up to ~37% in Ashkenazim, it really depends on the populations you're using to proxy the admixture (especially if you're using ancient populations, the contrast tends to be greater). At this point, I think the data suggests Western Jews are mostly Judean (~55% to ~60%) and Roman (~25% to ~35%) in origin. This is hard to reconcile with the fact that Roman Jewry seems to have been Greek-speaking, still, that's what the data suggests. The Sephardic reference is from Turkey BTW.



    Yeah I think the Eastern Euro is inflated by a factor of two, like I said this also depends on the populations used to proxy the admixture, in this case the contrast is far greater because I'm using ancient populations so it's more likely to interpret some of the more northerly stuff as Eastern European. In other fits, the Eastern Euro goes down to 8% (sometimes even lower than that), here's an example (remember Avar should be added to Samaritan, it's only there to improve the fit):

    [1] "distance%=0.3129 / distance=0.003129"

    Ashkenazi_Jew:average

    Samaritan 52.70
    Italian_Bergamo:average 31.55
    Lithuanian:average 8.35
    Avar:average 7.40


    It can even disappear in some fits (also notice how Avar fades away):


    [1] "distance%=0.3732 / distance=0.003732"

    Ashkenazi_Jew:average

    Druze:average 61
    Italian_Bergamo:average 39


    Western Jews seem to be mainly Judean/Israelite + Roman/Italian with minor local admixture, the latter varies in the sense that it is inflated in some individuals and nearly absent in others.



    North Italians seem to be close to Tuscans first and foremost, and the latter are quite close to Albanians and, in turn, Mainland Greeks. Kind of doubt they're a good proxy for what pre-Moorish Iberia looked like, even the Basque seem to be a better contender.
    Aga, good job on the charts and as always your posts are insightful, I have a question have you tried Bulgarian instead of North Italian and Tuscan? If you did, did it produce a similar result? Bulgarian and Albanian seem to be the closest to North Italians on various Gedmatch calcs, do you think it would make more sense that perhaps the European ancestry in Western Jews might actually be Macedonian Greek? Various Hellenistic cities had large Jewish populations, Alexandria's Jewish population accounted for 25% of the city's population.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wandering_amorite View Post
    FWIW Northern Italians tend to come out very close to Iberians on most calculators, and could possibly be a better proxy for pre-Moorish invasion Iberian ancestry than contemporary Iberians.
    So the Moorish period shifted Iberians NW? That doesn't make sense at all

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    So the Moorish invasion shifted Iberians NW? That doesn't make sense at all
    I inferred wrong here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    by the way a moroocan jew took i genea test
    https://www.igenea.com/en/home anyway they are using ftdna algoritem
    https://www.igenea.com/en/order/basic
    he scored:
    77% sefhardic

    9% iberia

    4% west central europe

    5% north africa
    don't remember the rest ....
    p.s
    so maybe there was huge sefhardic migration to mororoco ....
    According to Behar http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0002062
    there was a very significant number of the Jews from the Spanish expulsion joined the pre-existing community in Morocco
    Although the mtdna is only one aspect the total autosomal inheritance the model selected has to explain all of the facts.
    Out of 64 pre 1800 births 44% Cheshire, 1% Worcestershire, 1% Scottish (or Irish), 25% south Derbyshire, 13% Burton on Trent area (where 4 counties within 10 miles), 7% Shropshire, 1% Staffs, 8% Lancs

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  16. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Principe View Post
    Aga, good job on the charts and as always your posts are insightful, I have a question have you tried Bulgarian instead of North Italian and Tuscan? If you did, did it produce a similar result? Bulgarian and Albanian seem to be the closest to North Italians on various Gedmatch calcs, do you think it would make more sense that perhaps the European ancestry in Western Jews might actually be Macedonian Greek? Various Hellenistic cities had large Jewish populations, Alexandria's Jewish population accounted for 25% of the city's population.
    I've tried this before, this combination yields perfectly reasonable fits actually:

    [1] "distance%=0.3045 / distance=0.003045"

    Ashkenazi_Jew:average

    Levant_Neolithic:I1704 38.2
    Bulgarian:average 23.9
    Iran_Chalcolithic:average 17.3
    Macedonian:average 16.0
    Polish:average 4.5


    The problem here though is that Bulgarian and Macedonian could be proxied as Greek + Slavic, and so we have the perfect conditions to enable most of the genuinely recent Eastern European ancestry to hide behind these two populations. I agree with your assertion that identifying Macedonian Greeks as the source of Southern European admixture in Western Jews would make a whole lot of sense... Still, Italian - and more specifically Roman - ancestry does make more sense at this stage (going off the uniparental lineages this makes sense as well, there's a sizeable minority of Jewish R1b-Z56 for example), and while it is hard to reconcile with the fact that Roman Jewry was Greek-speaking, some alternative scenarios certainly could work, Greek was a lingua franca after all and would've been automatically favoured as the most appropriate language through which Jews (who essentially came from a province where Greek was the language of the administration) and Romans could interact.

    In my opinion, another layer of complexity is added by the Italian Beaker in Olalde et al.'s recent paper on the Bell Beakers, while I'm well aware that the PCA suffers from projection bias it's hard to see how this sample could end up plotting anywhere close to contemporary Italians. That's why ancient DNA from the Levant will only solve one part of the riddle (the most important of course), the Mediterranean remains terra incognita from the standpoint of ancient DNA, unfortunately so.

    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    agamemnon can you check indian jews
    or yemenite jews ?

    i am very intrested what they would fit
    kudos for all your work
    i also saw that you did iraqi and iranian jews much appricated and they have mesopotamian admixture probably as you said
    regards
    Adam
    Here's what Teimanim get:

    [1] "distance%=0.2989 / distance=0.002989"

    Yemenite_Jew:average

    BedouinB:average 71.95
    Jordan_EBA:average 23.90
    Levant_Neolithic:I0867 4.15

    [1] "distance%=0.3846 / distance=0.003846"

    Yemenite_Jew:average

    BedouinB:average 67.9
    Jordan_EBA:average 32.1


    While they do have Jewish ancestry, they seem to owe most of their ancestry to their host population (much like Mizrahi Jews in fact). Here, this is best proxied as Bedouin_B, Yemen's contemporary inhabitants seem to have absorbed additional East African and more generally SSA admixture.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 07-04-2017 at 12:26 AM.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Principe View Post
    Aga, good job on the charts and as always your posts are insightful, I have a question have you tried Bulgarian instead of North Italian and Tuscan? If you did, did it produce a similar result? Bulgarian and Albanian seem to be the closest to North Italians on various Gedmatch calcs, do you think it would make more sense that perhaps the European ancestry in Western Jews might actually be Macedonian Greek? Various Hellenistic cities had large Jewish populations, Alexandria's Jewish population accounted for 25% of the city's population.
    Laz placed north -Italians with south - french and bulgarians

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