Page 32 of 32 FirstFirst ... 22303132
Results 311 to 320 of 320

Thread: Corded Ware origin for P312?

  1. #311
    Registered Users
    Posts
    378
    Sex
    Location
    Addis Ababa
    Ethnicity
    Italian
    Nationality
    Ethiopian
    Y-DNA
    G2a3
    mtDNA
    H1

    Ethiopia
    I'm even more persuaded that one of the answers lies in Martiniano's paper about West Iberia... but it seems nobody is interested in...

    I recall that the steppe admixture was not high in BA samples... and they lack CHG component. So, a question must pop up: "How can they have a steppe admixture, if that steppe admixture is built with CHG component and those samples lack it?"...

  2. #312
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    2,089
    Sex
    Location
    Carolina, N. America
    Ethnicity
    Northwest European
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA
    R-U152>>>FGC12384
    mtDNA
    H1

    England Scotland Wales Germany Ireland Sweden Finns
    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    The quote from 2015 was based on my assumption that R-L11 men came from the east and into Iberia and from there P312 branched out somewhere around SE France/NW Italy in the form of U152. Olalde et al has shown that P312 could not have expanded out of Iberia. Also, the P312 Bell Beaker that does show up in Iberia and Italy is heavily diluted of steppe ancestry. So, while I've been beating the Begleitkeramik = R-L2+ drums for years, it could very well be that other R-U152 branches expanded from there as well. Also remember that Olalde's automated SNP caller did not produce any data for U152 save for one single negative result on an L21+ sample, so I fully expect that many more of the Bell Beaker East samples will also show U152+ when the BAMs are analyzed.
    I eagerly await the results.

    I guess my question to you, (which I understand is only an educated opinion, based on the available data), are you thinking as you mentioned in your first post of this thread
    In my opinion, all of these data points make the western-most periphery of Corded Ware the front-runner for finding not only the earliest R-U106, but also the predecessor of R-P312 Bell Beakers. A peripheral Corded Ware "province" in the Low Countries, Alsace or Switzerland would certainly give enough time for the diverse groups we see by about 2400 BC to form.... since P312 > Z40481 > ZZ11 > U152 > L2 was already present from France to Hungary
    Or has your opinion shifted further east based on your research on the Budzhak culture? I understand that we are potentially talking about two separate issues: Origin vs rapid growth, i.e. an origin in eastern Europe, followed by migration then rapid growth from a point near Low Countries, Alsace or Switzerland?
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; Yesterday at 04:51 PM.
    Genetic info
     
    U152>L2>Z49>Z142>Z150>Y3140>Y9080+ Yfull ID YF01489. YSEARCH 2PJVS.
    Earliest Known Paternal Ancestor: Edward Leopold Mitchell (NPE), b 1893, London, England

    Ancestry: English=37% Scot/Ulster-Scot=27% Welsh=14% Irish=3% German=14% Scandinavian=3% India=1% French & Dutch=1%

  3. #313
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    6,964
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA
    R1b-FGC36982
    mtDNA
    U5a2c3a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England
    Quote Originally Posted by Romilius View Post
    I'm even more persuaded that one of the answers lies in Martiniano's paper about West Iberia... but it seems nobody is interested in...

    I recall that the steppe admixture was not high in BA samples... and they lack CHG component. So, a question must pop up: "How can they have a steppe admixture, if that steppe admixture is built with CHG component and those samples lack it?"...
    Weren't those pretty late? I don't recall the dates, but I seem to recall it was mid to late 2nd millennium BC. That's too late to attach much significance to their lack of CHG.
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36982 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

  4. #314
    Gold Member Class
    Posts
    509
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    British
    Y-DNA
    R-DF49*
    mtDNA
    K1a4a1

    Northern Ireland Scotland England Isle of Man
    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Well, legless at least.

    I see what you did there. :-)

  5. The Following User Says Thank You to David Mc For This Useful Post:

     rms2 (Today)

  6. #315
    Gold Member Class
    Posts
    1,323
    Sex
    Location
    French Flanders
    Ethnicity
    Northwestern European
    Y-DNA
    R1b L21>DF13
    mtDNA
    K1

    France Belgium Flanders Wallonia Occitania France Bretagne
    Quote Originally Posted by Romilius View Post
    I'm even more persuaded that one of the answers lies in Martiniano's paper about West Iberia... but it seems nobody is interested in...

    I recall that the steppe admixture was not high in BA samples... and they lack CHG component. So, a question must pop up: "How can they have a steppe admixture, if that steppe admixture is built with CHG component and those samples lack it?"...
    We'll see. But the Steppe component is defined as basically a mix of EHG+CHG (half each). So if there is no CHG, this is not Steppe admixture.

  7. #316
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    6,964
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA
    R1b-FGC36982
    mtDNA
    U5a2c3a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England
    Quote Originally Posted by David Mc View Post
    I see what you did there. :-)
    Yes, for those who have been around dna discussion forums awhile, some will remember the metaphor of the R1b FC Ice Age Refuge as "The Zombie that Refused to Die". When Rich talked about those who have argued for the past decade for an Iberian origin for L23 being limbless, I immediately thought of that "Bicycle Girl" segment of the very first episode of The Walking Dead. I realized she had not lost all her limbs, only her legs, but that seemed appropriate, since that would enable her to still reach a computer keyboard and type.

    If I knew how to play around with video clips, I would dub in a voice for Bicycle Girl growling and gasping out, "Curse you, Olalde! Curse you!"
    Last edited by rms2; Today at 11:28 AM.
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36982 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

  8. #317
    Moderator
    Posts
    2,615
    Sex
    Location
    USA
    Ethnicity
    Italo-Iberian
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA
    R1b-U152+ L2+
    mtDNA
    H4a1

    United States of America Italy Spain
    Quote Originally Posted by Romilius View Post
    I'm even more persuaded that one of the answers lies in Martiniano's paper about West Iberia... but it seems nobody is interested in...

    I recall that the steppe admixture was not high in BA samples... and they lack CHG component. So, a question must pop up: "How can they have a steppe admixture, if that steppe admixture is built with CHG component and those samples lack it?"...
    The CHG situation is interesting, but not just in Bell Beaker samples. In their K10 figure, it looks like EHG is mixed in with WHG, so little can be said about the the EHG/CHG split. However, German Bell Beakers seem to have less (half?) the amount of CHG of German Corded Ware samples. Also, German Corded Ware samples seem to have about double(?) the CHG that Estonian Corded Ware samples have. Without seeing the EHG/CHG breakdown it is hard to draw many conclusions for Bell Beaker, but it makes one wonder if the first Bell Beaker P312 didn't come from an area where the ratio was higher in EHG.
    Last edited by R.Rocca; Today at 12:47 PM.
    Paternal: R1b-U152+ L2+ ZZ48+ FGC10543+, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: Haplogroup H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Asturias, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: Haplogroup J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: Haplogroup T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain

    Avatar: Raetian bronze votive, Fritzens-Sanzeno Culture VI-V c. BC, Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol, Italy

  9. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to R.Rocca For This Useful Post:

     Michał (Today), rms2 (Today), Romilius (Today)

  10. #318
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    6,964
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA
    R1b-FGC36982
    mtDNA
    U5a2c3a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England
    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    We'll see. But the Steppe component is defined as basically a mix of EHG+CHG (half each). So if there is no CHG, this is not Steppe admixture.
    I went back and looked really quickly at that paper. A couple of things struck me: 1) No R1b-L23 (no R1b at all actually) in its Neolithic and Chalcolithic samples; 2) R1b-V88 and R1b-P312 in the Middle Bronze Age; and 3) the dates for the Middle Bronze Age remains are 1740-1430 BC.

    The midpoint for those Middle Bronze Age remains is 1585 BC. That is about a thousand years after the spread of non-Iberian Bell Beaker, which evidently was the source of R1b-P312. That is too late for those Portuguese Middle Bronze Age remains to have much to tell us about the origin of R1b-P312, except the general thing that none was found among the Neolithic and Chalcolithic Iberian remains tested in that study.

    We know the older R1b-P312 Bell Beaker remains all had CHG.

    Since that paper has only appeared as a pre-print, it is possible the lack of CHG was an error, but even if it was not, a thousand years is time enough to alter autosomal inputs pretty significantly, especially if the CHG level wasn't all that high to begin with.
    Last edited by rms2; Today at 12:36 PM.
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36982 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

  11. The Following User Says Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     R.Rocca (Today)

  12. #319
    Registered Users
    Posts
    378
    Sex
    Location
    Addis Ababa
    Ethnicity
    Italian
    Nationality
    Ethiopian
    Y-DNA
    G2a3
    mtDNA
    H1

    Ethiopia
    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    I went back and looked really quickly at that paper. A couple of things struck me: 1) No R1b-L23 (no R1b at all actually) in its Neolithic and Chalcolithic samples; 2) R1b-V88 and R1b-P312 in the Middle Bronze Age; and 3) the dates for the Middle Bronze Age remains are 1740-1430 BC.

    The midpoint for those Middle Bronze Age remains is 1585 BC. That is about a thousand years after the spread of non-Iberian Bell Beaker, which evidently was the source of R1b-P312. That is too late for those Portuguese Middle Bronze Age remains to have much to tell us about the origin of R1b-P312, except the general thing that none was found among the Neolithic and Chalcolithic Iberian remains tested in that study.

    We know the older R1b-P312 Bell Beaker remains all had CHG.

    Since that paper has only appeared as a pre-print, it is possible the lack of CHG was an error, but even if it was not, a thousand years is time enough to alter autosomal inputs pretty significantly, especially if the CHG level wasn't all that high to begin with.
    R-V88 in Middle Bronze age?

  13. #320
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    6,964
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA
    R1b-FGC36982
    mtDNA
    U5a2c3a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England
    Quote Originally Posted by Romilius View Post
    R-V88 in Middle Bronze age?
    I just looked quickly and saw R1b1a2, which I believe is the current longhand for R1b-V88.
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36982 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

Page 32 of 32 FirstFirst ... 22303132

Similar Threads

  1. Relationship between Yamnaya and Corded Ware
    By Jean M in forum Archaeology (Prehistory)
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 08-14-2016, 10:54 PM
  2. R1a and Corded Ware
    By Michał in forum R1a General
    Replies: 32
    Last Post: 05-10-2016, 05:46 PM
  3. R1b in Corded Ware
    By rms2 in forum R1b General
    Replies: 88
    Last Post: 04-19-2016, 12:34 AM
  4. Geographical gap between Corded Ware and Yamnaya?
    By newtoboard in forum Archaeology (Prehistory)
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 04-25-2015, 12:32 AM
  5. First ancient genomes from Corded Ware
    By rms2 in forum Ancient (aDNA)
    Replies: 369
    Last Post: 11-27-2014, 03:39 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •