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Thread: Corded Ware origin for P312?

  1. #281
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    Where's the I1 then, unless that's specific to Scandinavian & Finnish Battle Axe?
    My 23andMe kit into Eurogenes K36 then oracle (thanks to lukaszM):

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  3. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    So . . . I think the strongest argument for a Corded Ware origin for Bell Beaker is the fact that Globular Amphora and TRB are the best fit for the Neolithic farmer component in Bell Beaker. That points to a path through Corded Ware territory.
    True as per Haak 2015 "Our results make a compelling case for the steppe as a source of at least some of the Indo-European languages in Europe by documenting a massive migration ∼4,500 years ago associated with the Yamnaya and Corded Ware cultures, which are identified by proponents of the steppe hypothesis as vectors for the spread of Indo-European languages into Europe"...


    According to some expert facts found in this book, "Woodland in the Neolithic of Northern Europe: The Forest as Ancestor" by Gordon Noble

    https://books.google.com/books?id=5IMHDgAAQBAJ&pg=PA22&dq=%22after+the+ice% 22+Gordon+Noble&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjMyJ70-cjUAhVB1oMKHc8vBTMQ6AEIKjAB#v=onepage&q=%22after%2 0the%20ice%22%20Gordon%20Noble&f=false

    "by the late Mesolithic, rich woodland environments has taken hold across most of northern Europe" So northern Europe 4th millennium be was still heavy forest that extended across Central European as a mixed forest ecoregion extending from eastern Germany to northern Moldova where the Eurasia Steppe begins.

    So begs that question, how did the Yamaha who were distinctive culture of pastoralists, who had ox-driven wagons with wheels and whose warriors rode horses made it through all this forest to get to Germany.

    The southern Danube plains was most likely the path to central Europe for 1000 years by R1b Men and pushed up the Rhine into north central Germany where the current BB sites are.

    Haak 2015 also states: "...Our results support a view of European pre-history punctuated by two major migrations: first, the arrival of the first farmers during the Early Neolithic from the Near East, and second, the arrival of Yamnaya pastoralists during the Late Neolithic from the steppe. ... and "..."This second resurgence must have started during the Late Neolithic/Bronze Age period itself, as the Bell Beaker and Unetice groups had reduced Yamnaya ancestry compared to the earlier Corded Ware, and comparable levels to that in some present-day Europeans (Fig. 3). Today, Yamnaya related ancestry is lower in southern Europe and higher in northern Europe,..."

    MJost - Watterson
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    Watterson USA GD1/67 & GD3/111, *5508+. GD1’s father’s sister-23andme pred. 3rd Cous w/ 0.91% DNA shared-3 seg. Largest on Chr1 w/non-Euro admix affirms my NPE paternal Watterson line via aDNA & YDNA. A 2nd pred. 4th cous has same DKA b. 1840's Georgia and MDKA d 1703 IOM. 3rd Cousin FtDNA FF is from the Watterson Ala. *5538+ b. IOM w/ GD6/67 & GD8/111 -SGD3. FGC5539+ a Scot-Ross GD13/111 -SGD8

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  5. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by MJost View Post
    So begs that question, how did the Yamaha who were distinctive culture of pastoralists, who had ox-driven wagons with wheels and whose warriors rode horses made it through all this forest to get to Germany.
    As much as I'd like to say something about meeting the nicest people on a Honda, I'm not going to take the low road, here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MJost View Post
    True as per Haak 2015 "Our results make a compelling case for the steppe as a source of at least some of the Indo-European languages in Europe by documenting a massive migration ∼4,500 years ago associated with the Yamnaya and Corded Ware cultures, which are identified by proponents of the steppe hypothesis as vectors for the spread of Indo-European languages into Europe"...


    According to some expert facts found in this book, "Woodland in the Neolithic of Northern Europe: The Forest as Ancestor" by Gordon Noble

    https://books.google.com/books?id=5IMHDgAAQBAJ&pg=PA22&dq=%22after+the+ice% 22+Gordon+Noble&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjMyJ70-cjUAhVB1oMKHc8vBTMQ6AEIKjAB#v=onepage&q=%22after%2 0the%20ice%22%20Gordon%20Noble&f=false

    "by the late Mesolithic, rich woodland environments has taken hold across most of northern Europe" So northern Europe 4th millennium be was still heavy forest that extended across Central European as a mixed forest ecoregion extending from eastern Germany to northern Moldova where the Eurasia Steppe begins.

    So begs that question, how did the Yamaha who were distinctive culture of pastoralists, who had ox-driven wagons with wheels and whose warriors rode horses made it through all this forest to get to Germany.

    The southern Danube plains was most likely the path to central Europe for 1000 years by R1b Men and pushed up the Rhine into north central Germany where the current BB sites are.

    Haak 2015 also states: "...Our results support a view of European pre-history punctuated by two major migrations: first, the arrival of the first farmers during the Early Neolithic from the Near East, and second, the arrival of Yamnaya pastoralists during the Late Neolithic from the steppe. ... and "..."This second resurgence must have started during the Late Neolithic/Bronze Age period itself, as the Bell Beaker and Unetice groups had reduced Yamnaya ancestry compared to the earlier Corded Ware, and comparable levels to that in some present-day Europeans (Fig. 3). Today, Yamnaya related ancestry is lower in southern Europe and higher in northern Europe,..."

    MJost - Watterson
    I think how much of a barrier European forest was depends on the density of the under story vegetation. Since the forest was pretty old by the 3rd millennium BC, chances are it had a lot of really large trees with a high canopy that shaded out a lot of under story growth. Thus passage through the forest on horseback and by wagon might not have been all that difficult.
     


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  9. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    As much as I'd like to say something about meeting the nicest people on a Honda, I'm not going to take the low road, here.
    HAHAHA Yamaha. Mark, that was pretty dopey! I'm a Harley guy, got my 883 at home - an iron horseman, staying true to my horse-riding, steppe ancestors!

    We really do need results from kurgans closer to Central Europe, but maybe the western fringes of Corded Ware has some surprises.
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  11. #286
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    From "Bell Beaker settlement pattern in Bohemia and Moravia" by Jan Turek and Jaroslav Peška...

    The introduction of Bell Beakers into the material culture
    of Eneolithic populations in Central Europe did not bring
    any great change in the settlement pattern. There are certain
    formal differences in between the Corded Ware and
    Bell Beaker material culture and burial rites, however these
    changes occurred within the same symbolic system.
    It is
    probable that the origin of the Bell Beaker Culture in Bohemia
    and Moravia is as a result of internal changes within
    the same society.
    It seems that some Corded Ware cultural
    norms, such as strict burial customs or a taboo of digging
    underground for other than funerary purposes (TUREK,
    1995a; NEUSTUPNY 1997; 1998) were gradually becoming
    less orthodox during the Bell Beaker period and subsequent
    Early Bronze Age
    Last edited by R.Rocca; 06-20-2017 at 08:00 PM.
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  13. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    From "Bell Beaker settlement pattern in Bohemia and Moravia" by Jan Turek and Jaroslav Peška...
    There are certain formal differences in between the Corded Ware and Bell Beaker material culture and burial rites, however these changes occurred within the same symbolic system. It is probable that the origin of the Bell Beaker Culture in Bohemia and Moravia is as a result of internal changes within the same society.
    What does this imply? This is tortured so I should probably stop. Do we see various kinds of women with Bell Beaker West heritages converting Corded Ware men in the Czech Rep to the new religion and practices? only to have them come back to bite the western people as newly minted Bell Beaker East people.
    Well, Constantine the Great converted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    What does this imply? This is tortured so I should probably stop. Do we see various kinds of women with Bell Beaker West heritages converting Corded Ware men in the Czech Rep to the new religion and practices? only to have them come back to bite the western people as newly minted Bell Beaker East people.
    Well, Constantine the Great converted.
    What exactly does Kurgan Bell Beaker owe to early Iberian Bell Beaker?

    If the taking of Iberian Bell Beaker wives was how the process occurred, why is it that Kurgan Bell Beaker bears little or no resemblance to Iberian_EN? Instead, its Neolithic farmer component is most like Globular Amphora and TRB.

    It really does look like the Iberian contribution was ideas rather than people. But what were those ideas?
     


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  16. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    What does this imply?
    The possibility that a Moravian group with aspects of Corded Ware culture, and other aspects that were different e.g. north-south burials; over time adopted other material inputs that resulted in creation of the eastern Bell Beaker culture?

    That's my attempt at connecting the dots in this thread
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  17. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    What does this imply? This is tortured so I should probably stop. Do we see various kinds of women with Bell Beaker West heritages converting Corded Ware men in the Czech Rep to the new religion and practices? only to have them come back to bite the western people as newly minted Bell Beaker East people.
    Well, Constantine the Great converted.
    Regarding religion, I think no such conversion took place. If we take the stelae at Sion, we see the older ones being destroyed around 2450 BC which is when the Bell Beaker East people seem to have arrived. This may have been a violent event, where the old religion (perhaps practiced by Western Bell Beaker and Remedello Culture people?) was repudiated in favor of Indo-European gods and the warrior class.
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    Father's Maternal: Haplogroup T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain

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