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Thread: The peoples of ancient Italy (and their origins)

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larth View Post
    There are tons of archeology pages about the origin of the Villanovan culture.
    I'd say the main root of the Villanovan culture is the Protovillanovan culture. And to me (and many others) it looks likely that the Villanovan was Etruscan. But maybe not the Protovillanovan.

  2. #22
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    On a different note, I've tried something different with my Eurogenes Global10 data. For a change, I modelled it with only very old, basic population ingredients: Anatolia_N (from Barcin), Yamnaya, WHG (Loschbour), Armenia_EBA, Levant_N, Mozabite. And to my huge surprise, the best fit was completely without Levant_N and Mozabites!

    Barcin_Neolithic:I1099 = 24.45
    Yamnaya_Samara:I0357 = 20.55
    Barcin_Neolithic:I1580 = 19.3
    Loschbour:Loschbour = 17.85
    Yamnaya_Samara:I0429 = 11.9
    Armenia_EBA:average = 4.8
    Yamnaya_Samara:I0443 = 1
    Barcin_Neolithic:I0744 = 0.15
    Levant_N = 0
    Mozabite = 0

    Very baffling to say the least!
    This shows how much these results are dependent on the choice of samples. Of course a modelling with nMonte doesn't have the same evidential power as a model with qpAdm, which draws upon formal stats.

    And as Davidski showed on Eurogenes using qpAdm: Levant_EBA admixture improves the fit for Sicilians, but not for other Italians, see:
    http://eurogenes.blogspot.ch/2017/01...-invasion.html

    Instead, Tuscans (and presumably other Italians) profit from adding Armenia_EBA to the mix.

    I still get 4.8% Armenia_EBA in the above model.

    BTW, this is in line with the new FTDNA MyOrigins 2.0, which gives me 6% Anatolian admixture, but only trace amounts of Levantine and North African admixture.

  3. #23
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    Also noteworthy: If I repeat my former model without Levantine and North African samples, the Maros sample doesn't eat anything of the Armenia-related admixture, to the contrary, the figure increases slightly (perhaps because Chalcolithic Armenians are preferred):

    French_East = 34.55
    Maros:RISE373 = 22.85
    German = 21.3
    Latvian = 9.55
    Iceman_MN:Iceman = 6.35
    Armenia_Chalcolithic:average = 5.4

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon_W View Post
    @ Larth

    Indeed, there was also the Chalcolithic Rinaldone culture in Tuscany, north/central Latium and the Marche. It was somewhat earlier than the Cetina culture: it started at the middle of the 4th millennium and continued until the Bell Beaker era. So if you're correct about a Balkan root of Rinaldone, then there we've got another Balkan influence in central Italy. The Cetina culture was also from the Balkan, but came later and was more confined to eastern Italy. Hard to tell which one was more ancestral to the Apennine culture, which came much later. The Rinaldone culture was replaced by the Bell Beakers, but perhaps, possibly, this didn't change the language and ethnicity of the people. Actually, thinking about it, the geographic distribution of the Rinaldone culture (Tuscany, Latium, Marche around Ancona) suggests to me that they may have been the Sicels.

    My point about ancient central and southern Italy being western extensions of the ancient Balkans was that this would explain a large part of the considerable Middle Eastern-related admixture in Italy. It seems to work well (with good fits) and makes more sense than to ascribe it all to slavery and miscegenation in the Roman age. So if Rinaldone was another Balkan derived culture, this doesn't really undermine my point, to the contrary.

    About the Bulgarians, or Bulgars rather: It's true that they were part of the Longobard invaders, but Byzantium also made use of Bulgar mercenaries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgars

    As for my North African admixture: In my population data sheet I also had (among others) all the Remedello samples, the Remedello average, Ötzi the iceman, Greece_LN:Klei10, French_East and the Levant_N samples. Yet none of them was sufficient to make the Mozabite-like admixture disappear. So much for the idea that it's very ancient or mediated by someone else. 23andme just gives me a <0.1% segment of definite North African origin, but 23andme isn't good with minor admixture that goes back more than 500 years. It's also noteworthy that a sample of males from Rimini had 2.0% of yDNA haplogroup E-V65 which peaks in Libya and is close to non-existent elsewhere, except for Morocco. But of course it doesn't follow that my grandfather had four times my North African admixture, which would be 4.4%. By chance I may have inherited nearly all of his North African admixture.

    Indeed, Villanova is near Bologna, but this doesn't tell us anything about the origin of the Villanovan culture, it's just a Villanovan site that by chance got the honour of becoming eponymous to the whole culture. In the Romagna the Villanovan presence was centered around Verucchio. From all theories of ethnic interpretation of the Villanovans I find the Umbrian theory the least likely one.
    The remendello people/culture comes via pannonia ( hungary ) via proto-illyrian people ( the origins of illyrians before they move south into the balkans ) , they most likely followed the sava river , crossed the julian alps into Italy and then settled in east-lombardy/western veneto remendello lands

    Villanova is indeed etruscan and never went north of the Po River

    Note: I do not believe a illyrian tribe ever existed , but was named illyrian due to a geographical area that was term illyria, that is , the "illyrian" tribes are named what they are , be it dalmatian, liburnian etc but all spoke a different language and had different ethnic origins.............so Illyrian is equal to Scandinavian in meaning
    Last edited by vettor; 06-07-2017 at 07:24 PM.

    European - 99.2%............Central Asian - 0.8% .............Yfull - 1460BC
    Father's Mtdna .....T2b17.......1735 Porcellengo Veneto Italy
    Sons Mtdna .....K1a4 ...........1710 Carnic Alps

    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS54+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, A339+ )

    The main negatives = ( M193-, P322-, P327-, Pages11- , L25- , CTS1848- )

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon_W View Post
    @ Larth

    An important footnote to the topic of the Rinaldone culture: Rinaldone was chronologically parallel to Remedello in the north. And we've already got three Remedello samples. They were regular MN Europeans, that is, they neither had steppe admixture nor increased Middle East related ancestry. On the PCA in Mathieson et al. 2017 they plot with Iberia_EN. And accordingly, their yDNA was exclusively in I2. And if Rinaldone was genetically similar, which is quite likely, then it wasn't responsible for the Middle Eastern shift in Italy.

    @ Gravetto-Danubian
    I thought so most of all because of the geographic distribution of the Ligurians who were not confined to northern Italy, but also prominent in southern France, originally up to the Pyrenees, later confined to southeastern France and Italy.
    I think north italy in the late bronze age was far more confused in culture than the rest of Italy.

    I recall the border of ligurians in france was the rhone river, on the other side where the iberians ( who originate only from current catalan lands)...............then we have some italian historians that state all north italy had liguri origins and so we have
    liguri-reti ( rhaetians )
    liguri- veneti
    liguri-imburi ( milan area )
    liguri-camuni
    etc etc ...................only time and samples will give us the truth

    European - 99.2%............Central Asian - 0.8% .............Yfull - 1460BC
    Father's Mtdna .....T2b17.......1735 Porcellengo Veneto Italy
    Sons Mtdna .....K1a4 ...........1710 Carnic Alps

    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS54+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, A339+ )

    The main negatives = ( M193-, P322-, P327-, Pages11- , L25- , CTS1848- )

  6. #26
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    I've been quite wrong, guys!

    I've come to the conclusion that the Armenia_EBA-related admixture in central Italy cannot be from the early Italics via the Cetina culture from the western Balkans.

    The following is from Mathieson et al. 2017. It shows the unsupervised ADMIXTURE analysis of the new Balkan Bronze Age samples. I've selected the run with K=10, because it's the most useful for my purposes. The light green component is EHG/Steppe_EMBA-related. Pink and light brown are early farmer components. Dark green is extra CHG/Iran-related.

    K=10.JPG

    As you can see: There are samples from the Bronze Age Balkans who have quite a lot of extra CHG/Iran without any Steppe component. BUT, the three samples from the Bronze Age Croatian coast are not like this. They do have decent steppe admixture but hardly any extra CHG/Iran.

    My idea wasn't that obviously stupid, because, look for example at the position of Hungary_MBA sample RISE349 in the PCA of the same paper:

    aaa.JPG

    She seems to plot with modern Sicilians!
    But unfortunately this is misleading in her case. It's a sample that was already published with Allentoft et al. 2015, and in the unsupervised ADMIXTURE analysis of that paper we can see that she has somewhat more of the teal component than other Bronze Age Hungarians, but still far less than modern Greeks, hence also less than Sicilians. See for instance at K=15 - 18:

    K=15 - 18.JPG

    And as Martiniano et al. 2017 have nicely shown, Bronze Age Hungary in general had relatively little of the CHG admixture typical of Yamnaya and other Steppe_EMBA cultures, again represented by teal:

    aa.JPG

    If the R1b in the eastern Bell Beakers is from the Hungarian Yamnaya, then apparently they have sprung from eastern Hungary to central Europe without leaving much of a trace in Bronze Age Hungary. Instead Bronze Age Hungary seems to have admixture from EHG/SHG related people who didn't have much CHG. Who knows, maybe these were even related with the Etruscans?

    So, if the Armenia_EBA-related admixture in central and northern Italy isn't from the Italics from the Balkans, where else is it from? IMO in that case Busby et al. 2015 must have been right, ascribing it to miscegenation in the Roman empire. The similarity of the admixing source to modern Cypriots appears to be just a random similarity of a mix that had many different roots in the Roman Age MENA region.

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  8. #27
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    It's interesting how 23andme's "Italian" ancestry has a substantial presence on the Greek islands and on Cyprus, but hardly in the Levant and North Africa:

    http://www.eupedia.com/images/conten...Me_Italian.png

    Of course the main reason for this "Italian" presence in Greece and Cyprus are not Roman colonists, but a genetic overlap due to an opposite movement of people from the East Med to Italy. You can also see that the "Italian" ancestry is slightly elevated in mainland Greece and Bulgaria. I suppose it would be much higher there if there hadn't been the Slavic incursions. Presumably Anatolia used to be similar, too before the Turkic invasion.

    But if this reasoning holds true, it's noteworthy that the Levant and North Africa are not part of this overlap zone. Instead, admixture from this MENA area in Italy shows up as MENA admixture on 23andme. This is basically limited to southern Italy and Sicily, with just minor levels in some, but not all of the more northern Italians.

    Therefore I suspect that these two different types of admixture were caused by different migration events at different times. The Cypriot-like admixture is quite substantial in Italy, while the other MENA admixture is more patchy and limited. As I showed in my previous post, there are Bronze Age samples from the Balkans who had extra CHG without much, if any, Steppe admixture. These samples were from early and middle Bronze Age Bulgaria. I guess that means this extra CHG admixture goes back at least to the Ezero culture, which is the early Bronze Age in Bulgaria. Presumably it was conveyed by people from Anatolia resembling the Chalcolithic Anatolians. And at the moment we can only speculate that this also flowed over to Greece, like it did to Bulgaria. And eventually, still in prehistoric times, it went from the southern Balkans to southern Italy and Sicily. And in the Roman era finally it was taken to Northern Italy by migrants from southern Italy.

  9. #28
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    I think the first principal component from Alberto Piazza's serological analysis reflects the influence from Greece and maybe the southern Balkans, it's actually striking how it lines up with ancient Greek colonies:

    sddff.png

    The somewhat elevated level on the Po estuary gels well with the Greek settlements in ancient Spina and Atria.

    But it's important to note that this component doesn't reflect all of the more broadly West Asian influence, it's just a part of it. But apparently, especially in central Italy, there was a different West Asian influence, CHG- and Armenia-EBA related, but not Greek-like. Which can be seen in the Italy-only ADMIXTURE analysis of Fiorito et al. 2015 at K=3:

    ejhg2015233x3.jpg

    Tuscany and Latium clearly have more of the red, southern component than the sample from Ferrara, which is designated here as Emilia-Romagna.
    But what the heck was this West Asian influence? And was it already present in the ancient Romans of the republic or did arrive very late in the imperial age? Only ancient DNA can offer definitive answers. Maybe the stories about a Trojan origin of the Romans were not pure fantasy?
    Last edited by Simon_W; 07-14-2017 at 04:05 PM.

  10. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon_W View Post
    It's interesting how 23andme's "Italian" ancestry has a substantial presence on the Greek islands and on Cyprus, but hardly in the Levant and North Africa:

    http://www.eupedia.com/images/conten...Me_Italian.png

    Of course the main reason for this "Italian" presence in Greece and Cyprus are not Roman colonists, but a genetic overlap due to an opposite movement of people from the East Med to Italy. You can also see that the "Italian" ancestry is slightly elevated in mainland Greece and Bulgaria. I suppose it would be much higher there if there hadn't been the Slavic incursions. Presumably Anatolia used to be similar, too before the Turkic invasion.

    But if this reasoning holds true, it's noteworthy that the Levant and North Africa are not part of this overlap zone. Instead, admixture from this MENA area in Italy shows up as MENA admixture on 23andme. This is basically limited to southern Italy and Sicily, with just minor levels in some, but not all of the more northern Italians.

    Therefore I suspect that these two different types of admixture were caused by different migration events at different times. The Cypriot-like admixture is quite substantial in Italy, while the other MENA admixture is more patchy and limited. As I showed in my previous post, there are Bronze Age samples from the Balkans who had extra CHG without much, if any, Steppe admixture. These samples were from early and middle Bronze Age Bulgaria. I guess that means this extra CHG admixture goes back at least to the Ezero culture, which is the early Bronze Age in Bulgaria. Presumably it was conveyed by people from Anatolia resembling the Chalcolithic Anatolians. And at the moment we can only speculate that this also flowed over to Greece, like it did to Bulgaria. And eventually, still in prehistoric times, it went from the southern Balkans to southern Italy and Sicily. And in the Roman era finally it was taken to Northern Italy by migrants from southern Italy.
    My mom is 30% Anatolian mid East at FTDNA. She's half Southern Italian.
    Jtest - Evil twin phase
    AJ + Serbian + South_Italian_&_Sicilian + Ukrainian-Russian @ 5.893190

    McDonald
    Most likely fit is 68% (+- 11.8%) Europe (various subcontinents)
    and 32% (+- 11.8%) Mideast (various subcontinents)


    Hungary 0.7479 Jewish 0.2521
    Romania 0.9359 Jewish 0.0641
    Germany 0.6305 Sephardic 0.3695
    Hungary 0.7310 Sephardic 0.2690
    Poland 0.5583 Sephardic 0.4417


    Eurogenes K13
    Algerian_Jewish + Bulgarian + East_Sicilian + La_Brana-1 @ 5.135429

  11. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon_W View Post
    This shows how much these results are dependent on the choice of samples. Of course a modelling with nMonte doesn't have the same evidential power as a model with qpAdm, which draws upon formal stats.

    And as Davidski showed on Eurogenes using qpAdm: Levant_EBA admixture improves the fit for Sicilians, but not for other Italians, see:
    http://eurogenes.blogspot.ch/2017/01...-invasion.html

    Instead, Tuscans (and presumably other Italians) profit from adding Armenia_EBA to the mix.

    I still get 4.8% Armenia_EBA in the above model.

    BTW, this is in line with the new FTDNA MyOrigins 2.0, which gives me 6% Anatolian admixture, but only trace amounts of Levantine and North African admixture.

    I added Armenia EBA to puntDNAL K12 Ancient and using non-Italian samples these are the nMonte results. They all get Armenia_EBA and Satsurbia (Georgia) and the Bulgarians both Armenian_MBA and Armenian_EBA. I used Serbs, Bulgarians, Austrians, Romanians, Greeks, Albanians.

    What am I supposed to take away from all this?


    Serbian

    [1] "distance%=0.197 / distance=0.00197"


    BenzigerodeHeimburg_LN_I0059 17.65
    Iberia_EN_I0412 15.80
    Starcevo_MN_I0174 15.65
    Vatya_SG_RISE479 11.40
    Satsurblia_SATP 9.90
    Armenian_EBA I1635 9.20

    Loschbour_SG 8.90
    Karelia_HG_I0061 3.70
    Srubnaya_I0232 2.35
    Hungary_CA_I1497 1.15
    Anatolian Neolithic_I0745 0.65
    Nordic_LN_SG_RISE97 0.60
    Hungary_EN_I0495 0.60
    BattleAxe_Sweden_SG_RISE94 0.45
    Samara_Eneolithic_I0433 0.40
    LBK_EN_I0054 0.40
    Andronovo_SG_RISE505 0.35
    Stuttgart_SG 0.35
    LaBrana 0.15
    Motala12 0.10
    Kotias_Kide_KK 0.10
    Hungary_HG_I1507 0.05
    Iberia_Chalcolithic_I0300 0.05
    Remedello_BA_SG_RISE489 0.05


    Bulgarian

    [1] "distance%=1.0339 / distance=0.010339"

    got

    Hungary_EN_I0495 25.70
    Vatya_SG_RISE479 14.90
    Armenian_EBA I1635 13.35
    Starcevo_MN_I0174 11.20
    Iberia_Mesolithic_I0585 9.65
    Armenian_MBA 8.60
    Satsurblia_SATP 5.80
    Andronovo_SG_RISE505 4.70
    Karelia_HG_I0061 3.80
    Samara_Eneolithic_I0433 2.30


    Bulgarian 2

    [1] "distance%=1.0295 / distance=0.010295"

    got

    Armenian_EBA I1635 21.30
    Starcevo_MN_I0174 20.25
    Iberia_Mesolithic_I0585 17.15
    Vatya_SG_RISE479 15.80
    Hungary_EN_I0495 10.80
    Armenian_MBA 6.90
    Satsurblia_SATP 6.00

    Ust_Ishim_DG 1.30
    Hungary_HG_I1507 0.25
    Samara_Eneolithic_I0433 0.25


    Romanian

    [1] "distance%=0.6648 / distance=0.006648"

    got

    Iceman_MN_SG 29.50
    Scythian_IA_I0247 15.90
    Starcevo_MN_I0174 12.25
    Armenian_EBA I1635 10.40
    Corded_Ware_Estonia_RISE00 6.90
    Satsurblia_SATP 6.65
    LaBrana 4.90
    Motala12 4.90
    Iberia_M_ I0406 2.80
    Kotias_Kide_KK 2.30
    Hungary_CA_I1497 1.15
    Iberia_Chalcolithic_I0300 0.85
    Epserstedt_MN_I0172 0.35
    Remedello_BA_SG_RISE489 0.35
    Stuttgart_SG 0.25
    Anatolian Neolithic_I0745 0.25
    LBK_EN_I0054 0.20
    Sintashta_MBA_RISE_386 0.05
    BenzigerodeHeimburg_LN_I0059 0.05

    Austrian from East Tyrol


    [1] "distance%=0.1545 / distance=0.001545"

    got

    Vatya_SG_RISE479 25.65
    Iberia_EN_I0412 18.30
    Loschbour_SG 10.55
    Bell_Beaker_Germany_I1549 7.80
    Satsurblia_SATP 7.70
    Armenian_EBA I1635 7.70

    Anatolian Neolithic_I0746 5.65
    Corded_Ware_Germany_I0104 5.30
    Sintashta_MBA_RISE_386 4.80
    Yamnaya_Samara_I0443 2.40
    Bell_Beaker_Czech_RISE569 1.45
    Hungary_EN_I0495 1.10
    Starcevo_MN_I0174 0.30
    Anatolian Neolithic_I0745 0.30
    Motala12 0.25
    LaBrana 0.20
    Hungary_HG_I1507 0.10
    Samara_HG_I0124 0.10
    Stuttgart_SG 0.10
    Corded_Ware_Germany_I0103 0.05
    Iberia_Chalcolithic_I0300 0.05
    Epserstedt_MN_I0172 0.05
    Remedello_BA_SG_RISE489 0.05
    LBK_EN_I0054 0.05



    A Macedonian


    [1] "distance%=0.1778 / distance=0.001778"

    got

    Armenian_EBA I1635 16.20
    Epserstedt_MN_I0172 15.95
    Sintashta_MBA_RISE_386 10.95
    Satsurblia_SATP 10.65
    Anatolian Neolithic_I0745 9.60
    Remedello_BA_SG_RISE489 8.95
    Motala12 7.75
    LaBrana 6.40
    Iberia_Chalcolithic_I0300 6.05
    Stuttgart_SG 3.20
    LBK_EN_I0054 2.95
    BattleAxe_Sweden_SG_RISE94 0.50
    Loschbour_SG 0.25
    Vatya_SG_RISE479 0.25
    Iceman_MN_SG 0.20
    Anatolian Neolithic_I0746 0.15

    A central Greek

    [1] "distance%=0.4466 / distance=0.004466"

    got

    Starcevo_MN_I0174 37.35
    Armenian_EBA I1635 27.75
    Hungary_EN_I0495 10.80
    Hungary_BA_I1502 8.65
    Iberia_Mesolithic_I0585 7.10
    Satsurblia_SATP 5.05
    Karelia_HG_I0061 3.25
    Ust_Ishim_DG 0.05


    A Greek from Crete


    [1] "distance%=3.7785 / distance=0.037785"

    got

    Starcevo_MN_I0174 45.0
    Armenian_EBA I1635 43.1
    Kostenki14_UP_SG 10.1
    Karelia_HG_I0061 1.8



    An Albanian

    [1] "distance%=0.1691 / distance=0.001691"

    got

    Starcevo_MN_I0174 19.70
    Epserstedt_MN_I0172 17.35
    Armenian_EBA I1635 13.35
    Satsurblia_SATP 10.65

    Hungary_BA_I1502 7.85
    Sintashta_MBA_RISE_386 4.55
    Stuttgart_SG 3.75
    LaBrana 3.70
    LBK_EN_I0054 3.40
    Remedello_BA_SG_RISE489 3.30
    Motala12 3.00
    Iceman_MN_SG 2.00
    Anatolian Neolithic_I0745 1.70
    BenzigerodeHeimburg_LN_I0059 1.60
    Iberia_EN_I0412 1.55
    Hungary_CA_I1497 0.85
    Iberia_Chalcolithic_I0300 0.80
    Iberia_M_ I0406 0.25
    Loschbour_SG 0.20
    Vatya_SG_RISE479 0.20
    BattleAxe_Sweden_SG_RISE94 0.20
    Hungary_HG_I1507 0.05
    Last edited by Pratt; 07-14-2017 at 09:37 PM.

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