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Thread: The peoples of ancient Italy (and their origins)

  1. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dimanto View Post
    Funny how you guys are almost more northern than me even.
    On Dodecad World9 I am 91.2pc North Italian+8.8pc Turkish @ 0.6

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  3. #222
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    Italy Piemonte Italy Trentino Alto Adige Italy Italy Ladinia Italy 1861-1946
    Quote Originally Posted by Cascio View Post
    Strabo's account of the extermination of Cispadane Gauls like the Boii suggests that the strength of R1b-Z36 in Emilia and Northern Tuscany may be a Ligurian rather than a Celtic/Gallic legacy.

    Strabo said only the Ligurians and Roman colonies (mixed with Etruscans and Umbrians) remained in the area.

    I could be wrong but I think R1b-Z36 is Celto-Ligurian rather than just Ligurian. Golasecca people may have been a mixture of Celts (from La Tne) and Ligurians.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cascio View Post
    On Dodecad World9 I am 91.2pc North Italian+8.8pc Turkish @ 0.6

    You're Tuscan but you're very close to North Italian.

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  5. #223
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  7. #224
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    @simon_w
    seems as if you were spot on about add CHG from an anatolian source;
    i doubted that CHG would be independent of IE in anatolia but it clearly is, based on the k=17 of lazaridis et al; http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...23310_SF1.html
    given that no steppe-related ancestry occurs in the anatolian/minoan groups; and if it is safe to assume that the non-IE tyrrhenains were akin to anatolia_ba and minoans in that regard than that is def the source for add CHG;
    Last edited by alexfritz; 08-04-2017 at 06:03 AM.
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  8. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexfritz View Post
    @simon_w
    seems as if you were spot on about add CHG from an anatolian source;
    i doubted that CHG would be independent of IE in anatolia but it clearly is based on the k=17 of lazaridis et al; http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...23310_SF1.html
    if it is safe to assume that the non-IE tyrrhenains were akin to anatolia_ba and minoans in that regard than that is def the source for add CHG;
    Yes, but it's not a Tyrrhenian migration, that could have not changed the genome of central and south Italy, because if this Tyrrhenian migration happened it happened too late. But it's something else, Copper Age/BA migrations from the southern Balkans to southeastern Italy (for example: from Dimini, Thessaly to Serra d'Alto>Laterza etc...), all archaeologically attested.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larth View Post
    Yes, but it's not a Tyrrhenian migration, that could have not changed the genome of central and south Italy, because if this Tyrrhenian migration happened it happened too late. But it's something else, Copper Age/BA migrations from the southern Balkans to southeastern Italy (for example: from Dimini, Thessaly to Serra d'Alto>Laterza etc...), all archaeologically attested.
    the CHG in minoans and anatolia seems disconnected from any IE source incl armenian-groups;
    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...e23310_T1.html
    thus it could be that the tyrrhenians(and all other historically rec pelasgians) are a non-IE source for add CHG; and all that ought to be post neolithic and anatolian_Chl;
    Last edited by alexfritz; 08-04-2017 at 05:56 AM.
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  12. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexfritz View Post
    @simon_w
    seems as if you were spot on about add CHG from an anatolian source;
    i doubted that CHG would be independent of IE in anatolia but it clearly is, based on the k=17 of lazaridis et al; http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...23310_SF1.html
    given that no steppe-related ancestry occurs in the anatolian/minoan groups; and if it is safe to assume that the non-IE tyrrhenains were akin to anatolia_ba and minoans in that regard than that is def the source for add CHG;
    We need to modify this.

    First of all Myceneans the ~ 7-% steppe admixture arrived with Chalcolithic central Balkan immigrants of Cernavoda-Baden type
    Mycenaean
    "Greece_LN" 37.85
    "Hungary_CA:I1497" 30.9
    "Armenia_EBA" 27.05
    "Yamnaya_Samara" 1.45



    Secondly, Minoans do not have an excess of "CHG" ancestry
    They look heavily Greek Neolithic

    Minoan_Lasithi
    "Greece_LN" 79.65
    "Armenia_EBA" 19.85
    "Hungary_CA:I1497" 0.5
    "Yamnaya_Samara" 0
    "Baalberge_MN" 0


    ^ So i think we now understand the origins of Minioans, = largely Neolithic Greeks + 20% west asian

    the bronze Age southwest Anatolians are different

    Anatolia_BA
    "Barcin_Neolithic:I1099" 45.25
    "Kotias:KK1" 32.8
    "Levant_Neolithic:I1699" 21.2
    "Iran_Neolithic:I1290" 0.45

    So Minoans =/= BA Anatolians

    The latter could be the source of extra CHG in Italians, or whichever.
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 08-04-2017 at 07:22 AM.

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  14. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    We need to modify this.

    First of all Myceneans the ~ 7-% steppe admixture arrived with Chalcolithic central Balkan immigrants of Cernavoda-Baden type
    Mycenaean
    "Greece_LN" 37.85
    "Hungary_CA:I1497" 30.9
    "Armenia_EBA" 27.05
    "Yamnaya_Samara" 1.45



    Secondly, Minoans do not have an excess of "CHG" ancestry
    They look heavily Greek Neolithic

    Minoan_Lasithi
    "Greece_LN" 79.65
    "Armenia_EBA" 19.85
    "Hungary_CA:I1497" 0.5
    "Yamnaya_Samara" 0
    "Baalberge_MN" 0


    ^ So i think we now understand the origins of Minioans, = largely Neolithic Greeks + 20% west asian

    the bronze Age southwest Anatolians are different

    Anatolia_BA
    "Barcin_Neolithic:I1099" 45.25
    "Kotias:KK1" 32.8
    "Levant_Neolithic:I1699" 21.2
    "Iran_Neolithic:I1290" 0.45

    So Minoans =/= BA Anatolians

    The latter could be the source of extra CHG in Italians, or whichever.
    i agree with that;
    my point is just that the CHG in menoans/anatolians is not IE dependent; hence it could fit with the non-IE tyrrhenians i.e. an add CHG without add EHG/steppe; with ITA_N as well as ITA_S are comparable to the GRK groups in terms of 'caucasus' in sarno et al k=4
    b43kGlR.jpg

    yes, the menoans and anatolian_ba are not the same people however since they both overwhelmingly derive from anatolian_farmers (table1:mixture_proportions) i do not view them as outrageously alien to each-other either; the tyrrhenians historically ascribed to aegean-islands could however be more akin to anatolia_ba in that regard, thats true;
    Last edited by alexfritz; 08-04-2017 at 08:26 AM.
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  16. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexfritz View Post

    yes, the menoans and anatolian_ba are not the same people however since they both overwhelmingly derive from anatolian_farmers (table1:mixture_proportions) i do not view them as outrageously alien to each-other either; the tyrrhenians historically ascribed to aegean-islands could however be more akin to anatolia_ba in that regard, thats true;
    Yes I agree , though for discussions sake, we might point out this 'shared Barcin -like ' ancestry split c. 7000 BC. So they had had a few thousand years of cultural and linguistic 'drift', although of course they weren't in a vaccuum.

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  18. #230
    It is.
    Last edited by Hathor; 10-27-2017 at 03:40 PM.

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