Page 2 of 23 FirstFirst 123412 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 229

Thread: The peoples of ancient Italy (and their origins)

  1. #11
    Registered Users
    Posts
    328
    Sex
    Y-DNA
    R1a-YP406(xYP402)
    mtDNA
    K2b1

    Quote Originally Posted by Larth View Post
    More the former (CHG-like) than the latter, and it arrived in the Chalcolithic from the Balkans. Then, especially in Romagna (Cesena is in Romagna) there might be a small recent legacy due to Byzantine rule but it is not something they all have.
    Yes, in the Chalcolithic, properly speaking. There's a terminological pitfall. The point is, many or even most archaeologists define the start of the Bronze Age as the time when tin bronze came in use. But there are some people who put the dividing line at an earlier date, when arsenic bronze was common. And in the DNA papers the latter terminology has become standard. That's why they call Yamnaya a Bronze Age culture. So in that sense Cetina was Bronze Age too, but in the narrower, former sense, it was a Chalcolithic culture.

    And of course the Romagna isn't identical to all other North Italian regions, I never thought so, I think there's some regional variation everywhere. Indeed there was a Byzantine presence in the Romagna, for instance there is a village called Bulgarno east of Cesena. This is explained with a presence of Bulgarian soldiers from the Byzantine empire. On the other hand my small North African and Levantine admixture are not exactly what you would associate with Byzantines. But even these lands did belong to the Byzantine empire, so in a way, they may be Byzantine as well. My prefered theory is that they are most of all from refugees who had fled from the Muslim expansion. Ravenna also had the ancient military port of Classis nearby, and I've read that the naval soldiers on these ships were most of all from the east Med area, especially from Egypt.

    I wouldn't overestimate the Byzantine contribution to the Romagna, though. The thing is: In the Middle Bronze Age, the Romagna was part of the Apennine culture, like central Italy. That's probably the reason why it was inhabited by the Umbri at the dawn of history.
    Last edited by Simon_W; 06-05-2017 at 03:46 PM.

  2. #12
    Registered Users
    Posts
    256
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon_W View Post
    It looks more and more like ancient central and southern Italy were like a western extension of the ancient northern and southern Balkans, respectively. This makes sense archaeologically and genetically.
    You can't put the whole central Italy all together, it's much more complicated: Tuscan has a different history from Marche, for example. Northern Tuscany has a different history from Southern Tuscany, and so on. Tuscany shared a lot with Northern Italy: EEF, Bell-Beaker, Villanovan culture, ancient Ligurians in northern Tuscany. But Tuscany has received, at the time of the culture of Rinaldone, located in the north of Lazio, a Balkan influence which had involved much of southern Italy. These newcomers from the Balkans in the culture of Rinaldone mixed with the previous inhabitants, EEF and Bell Beakers. This Balkan influence could have given rise to Apennine culture, somewhat related to Balkan culture like Vucedol and others. In any case the Apennine was then replaced from the spread of the Proto-Villanovan culture from the north, in both Tuscany and northern Lazio.


    Quote Originally Posted by Simon_W View Post
    there was a Byzantine presence in the Romagna, for instance there is a village called Bulgarno east of Cesena. This is explained with a presence of Bulgarian soldiers from the Byzantine empire.
    Bulgarno was founded in Byzantine times but Bulgar soldiers arrived most likely with the Longobards.


    Quote Originally Posted by Simon_W View Post
    On the other hand my small North African and Levantine admixture are not exactly what you would associate with Byzantines. But even these lands did belong to the Byzantine empire, so in a way, they may be Byzantine as well. My prefered theory is that they are most of all from refugees who had fled from the Muslim expansion. Ravenna also had the ancient military port of Classis nearby, and I've read that the naval soldiers on these ships were most of all from the east Med area, especially from Egypt.
    A North African component can be very old, especially in south-west Europe. However, they are so low percentages that are almost close to noise. And in any case they may have come also not directly but with the mediation of someone else.


    Quote Originally Posted by Simon_W View Post
    I wouldn't overestimate the Byzantine contribution to the Romagna, though. The thing is: In the Middle Bronze Age, the Romagna was part of the Apennine culture, like central Italy. That's probably the reason why it was inhabited by the Umbri at the dawn of history.
    In fact Romagna is likely the most genetically closer part of North Italy to Central Italy. Umbri can be somewhat related to the Villanovans (Villanova is the name of village in Emilia, near Bologna).

  3. #13
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,520
    Sex
    Location
    Australia
    Ethnicity
    Italian Alpine
    Nationality
    Australian and Italian
    Y-DNA
    T1a2b1a1a2b
    mtDNA
    H95a -Ostrogoth

    Australia Italy Veneto Friuli Italy Trentino Alto Adige Italy Sweden Finns
    Quote Originally Posted by Simon_W View Post
    It looks more and more like ancient central and southern Italy were like a western extension of the ancient northern and southern Balkans, respectively. This makes sense archaeologically and genetically. We didn't yet see autosomal DNA from Bronze Age Greece, but I would expect an even more Middle East shifted population, on average, than in the northern Balkans and Bronze Age Hungary. And towards western Italy the Balkan influence got weaker, resulting in somewhat stronger Iberian affinity in some places. Whereas Bronze Age northern Italy with its pile-dwelling cultures rooted in central Europe was a different story. But Etruscan and Roman (in the broadest sense) influence also brought along the old Balkan influence.
    the pile-dwelling northern can be correct since Italian historians state that up to 5000years ago north-east Italy to central Italy was not possible by foot



    as the po river was still under water

    The EUGANEI are the indigenous veneti and furli people

    Father's Mothers Ydna ......R-S22778 ........Merlengo Veneto
    Father's Mtdna .....T2b35.......1735 Porcellengo Veneto Italy
    Wife's Ydna ..........R-DF99
    Sons Mtdna .....K1a4 ...........1710 Carnic Alps

    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS54+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, A339+ )

    The main negatives = ( M193-, P322-, P327-, Pages11- , L25- , CTS1848- )

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to vettor For This Useful Post:

     Erlembaldo (06-05-2017)

  5. #14
    Registered Users
    Posts
    256
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    the pile-dwelling northern can be correct since Italian historians state that up to 5000years ago north-east Italy to central Italy was not possible by foot
    as the po river was still under water

    The EUGANEI are the indigenous veneti and furli people
    The map you've posted according to his author is dated 1000 b.C.-100 b.C. I don't know how much it's accurate. But of course Po Valley for a long time was instead a sea. People have lived in the mountains, especially the Alps, for a long time and obviously they went through the Tosco-Emilian Apennines, many meters above sea level and much easier to cross than the Alps. The reconstruction of how Villanovians migrated from northern Italy to Tuscany.




    North Italy aroud 177 b.C.



    North Italy aroud the Pliocene


  6. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Larth For This Useful Post:

     Erlembaldo (06-05-2017), vettor (06-07-2017)

  7. #15
    Registered Users
    Posts
    328
    Sex
    Y-DNA
    R1a-YP406(xYP402)
    mtDNA
    K2b1

    @ Larth

    Indeed, there was also the Chalcolithic Rinaldone culture in Tuscany, north/central Latium and the Marche. It was somewhat earlier than the Cetina culture: it started at the middle of the 4th millennium and continued until the Bell Beaker era. So if you're correct about a Balkan root of Rinaldone, then there we've got another Balkan influence in central Italy. The Cetina culture was also from the Balkan, but came later and was more confined to eastern Italy. Hard to tell which one was more ancestral to the Apennine culture, which came much later. The Rinaldone culture was replaced by the Bell Beakers, but perhaps, possibly, this didn't change the language and ethnicity of the people. Actually, thinking about it, the geographic distribution of the Rinaldone culture (Tuscany, Latium, Marche around Ancona) suggests to me that they may have been the Sicels.

    My point about ancient central and southern Italy being western extensions of the ancient Balkans was that this would explain a large part of the considerable Middle Eastern-related admixture in Italy. It seems to work well (with good fits) and makes more sense than to ascribe it all to slavery and miscegenation in the Roman age. So if Rinaldone was another Balkan derived culture, this doesn't really undermine my point, to the contrary.

    About the Bulgarians, or Bulgars rather: It's true that they were part of the Longobard invaders, but Byzantium also made use of Bulgar mercenaries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgars

    As for my North African admixture: In my population data sheet I also had (among others) all the Remedello samples, the Remedello average, Ötzi the iceman, Greece_LN:Klei10, French_East and the Levant_N samples. Yet none of them was sufficient to make the Mozabite-like admixture disappear. So much for the idea that it's very ancient or mediated by someone else. 23andme just gives me a <0.1% segment of definite North African origin, but 23andme isn't good with minor admixture that goes back more than 500 years. It's also noteworthy that a sample of males from Rimini had 2.0% of yDNA haplogroup E-V65 which peaks in Libya and is close to non-existent elsewhere, except for Morocco. But of course it doesn't follow that my grandfather had four times my North African admixture, which would be 4.4%. By chance I may have inherited nearly all of his North African admixture.

    Indeed, Villanova is near Bologna, but this doesn't tell us anything about the origin of the Villanovan culture, it's just a Villanovan site that by chance got the honour of becoming eponymous to the whole culture. In the Romagna the Villanovan presence was centered around Verucchio. From all theories of ethnic interpretation of the Villanovans I find the Umbrian theory the least likely one.

  8. #16
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    3,720
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    N/A
    Nationality
    N/A
    Y-DNA
    I2a1-L621- PH 908
    mtDNA
    H 47

    Simon W
    The impression I get is that BB wasn't a prominent feature in Italy.
    What makes you feel that Ligurian came from BB than the pile dwelling sites ?

  9. #17
    Registered Users
    Posts
    256
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon_W View Post
    Indeed, Villanova is near Bologna, but this doesn't tell us anything about the origin of the Villanovan culture, it's just a Villanovan site that by chance got the honour of becoming eponymous to the whole culture. In the Romagna the Villanovan presence was centered around Verucchio. From all theories of ethnic interpretation of the Villanovans I find the Umbrian theory the least likely one.
    There are tons of archeology pages about the origin of the Villanovan culture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    Simon W
    The impression I get is that BB wasn't a prominent feature in Italy.
    What makes you feel that Ligurian came from BB than the pile dwelling sites ?
    Your main mistake, and I refer to both of you, it's to attribute a culture or civilization to a single source.

  10. #18
    Registered Users
    Posts
    328
    Sex
    Y-DNA
    R1a-YP406(xYP402)
    mtDNA
    K2b1

    @ Larth

    An important footnote to the topic of the Rinaldone culture: Rinaldone was chronologically parallel to Remedello in the north. And we've already got three Remedello samples. They were regular MN Europeans, that is, they neither had steppe admixture nor increased Middle East related ancestry. On the PCA in Mathieson et al. 2017 they plot with Iberia_EN. And accordingly, their yDNA was exclusively in I2. And if Rinaldone was genetically similar, which is quite likely, then it wasn't responsible for the Middle Eastern shift in Italy.

    @ Gravetto-Danubian
    I thought so most of all because of the geographic distribution of the Ligurians who were not confined to northern Italy, but also prominent in southern France, originally up to the Pyrenees, later confined to southeastern France and Italy.

  11. The Following User Says Thank You to Simon_W For This Useful Post:

     Michał (06-07-2017)

  12. #19
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    3,720
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    N/A
    Nationality
    N/A
    Y-DNA
    I2a1-L621- PH 908
    mtDNA
    H 47

    Quote Originally Posted by Larth View Post

    Your main mistake, and I refer to both of you, it's to attribute a culture or civilization to a single source.
    Neither I, nor Simon (I'm sure), would presume any archaeological culture represents a bounded homogenous whole, or is strictly monolingual, but langauges certainly can and do spread with such units, no doubt.
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 06-06-2017 at 10:15 AM.

  13. The Following User Says Thank You to Gravetto-Danubian For This Useful Post:

     Michał (06-07-2017)

  14. #20
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    3,720
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    N/A
    Nationality
    N/A
    Y-DNA
    I2a1-L621- PH 908
    mtDNA
    H 47

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon_W View Post
    @ Gravetto-Danubian
    I thought so most of all because of the geographic distribution of the Ligurians who were not confined to northern Italy, but also prominent in southern France, originally up to the Pyrenees, later confined to southeastern France and Italy.
    Yes I thought so, and is sensible, but there were significant changes after BB in northern Italy & southern France, for example settlements disappeared or moved. Whatever the case, I think Ligurians would represent a far later group than BB.

  15. The Following User Says Thank You to Gravetto-Danubian For This Useful Post:

     vettor (06-07-2017)

Page 2 of 23 FirstFirst 123412 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. ftdna ancient origins results, italian
    By patrizio22 in forum Autosomal (auDNA)
    Replies: 75
    Last Post: 03-23-2017, 06:12 PM
  2. Replies: 74
    Last Post: 11-22-2016, 05:48 PM
  3. MDLP K23b to Ancient Origins Convertor
    By dnamania in forum FTDNA
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 11-14-2016, 06:32 AM
  4. Best sites / tests for ancient DNA / origins
    By UtopiasCult in forum General
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 02-08-2016, 10:36 AM
  5. Replies: 258
    Last Post: 08-23-2015, 08:31 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •