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Thread: Title: The population genomics of archaeological transition in west Iberia

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmandoR1b View Post
    That's the logical conclusion, and something that I had thought of, but only more samples can possibly answer that question.
    The Beaker paper also shows a couple of R1b1 samples in Iberian beakers without any Steppe components. Granted they are not R1b-P312 derived; but I think one of them is just very low resolution; so it was not tested for the M269/L51/P312 markers.

    We desperately need the supplementary info to see the D-stats evidence of Steppe input into the Portuguese Bronze Age sample. We also need to investigate if the higher Steppe affinity in Portuguese BA is due to the visible increase of Hunter Gatherer ancestry with respect to the previous Neolithic Portuguese or if is due to a Steppe input. In theory an increase in Hunter Gatherer ancestry without CHG will still cause the Portuguese Bronze Age to be closer to the Steppe than their predecessors. The "washed away" theory is a bit shaky; because none of the other Beakers have had their CHG washed away. Again we need to see the authors logic to assign a Steppe input to the Portuguese BA samples.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeanL View Post
    We also need to investigate if the higher Steppe affinity in Portuguese BA is due to the visible increase of Hunter Gatherer ancestry with respect to the previous Neolithic Portuguese
    They specifically stated this was not the case:

    "D-Statistic tests would suggest this increase is associated not with Western HG ancestry, but instead reveal significant introgression from several steppe populations into the Portuguese BA relative to the preceding LNCA"

    I wonder what 'steppe' means, if it lacks CHG. How silly would it be to propose that a population with EEF+WHG+EHG arrived to SW Iberia? Never seen anything like that before

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    He appears to assign a Steppe input to the Portuguese BA samples based on the R1b result.
    They are assigned R1b-M269. It will be interesting if we can get better definition using a more recent ISOGG Tree.

    Third, modern Iberia has a unique diversity of language with the persistence of a
    language of pre-Indo European origin in the Basque region. Interestingly, the
    population of Euskera speakers shows one of the maximal frequencies (87.1%) for the
    Y-chromosome variant, R1b-M269 [12], which is carried at high frequency into Northern
    Europe by the Late Neolithic/Bronze Age steppe migrations [4,5,13], although its arrival
    time in Iberia remains unknown.....

    IberiaR1b.PNG

    Bronze Age Y-Chromosome discontinuity. Previous studies have demonstrated a
    substantial turnover in Y-chromosome lineages during the Northern European Late
    Neolithic and Bronze Age, with R1b haplogroup sweeping to high frequencies. This has
    been linked to third millennium population migrations into Northern Europe from the
    Steppe, hypothesised to have introduced Indo-european languages to the continent [4].
    Strikingly, the array of Y-chromosome haplotypes in ancient Iberia shifts from those
    typical of Neolithic populations to haplogroup R1b-M269 in each of the three BA males.
    Interestingly, modern Basque populations have this variant at high frequency (87.1%) ....

    A distinct change in Y-chromosome haplotypes is clear - all three Iberian BA males are
    R1b, the haplogroup that has been strongly associated with Steppe-related migrations.
    Patterns of haplotype affinity with modern populations illustrate the Portuguese
    population underwent a shift from southern toward northern affinity to a distinctly
    reduced degree to that seen with other regional Neolithic-BA transitions.....

    Several candidate windows for the entry of Steppe ancestry into Portugal exist. The
    first is the possible emergence of Bell Beaker culture in Southwest Iberia and
    subsequent establishment of extensive networks with Central and NW European
    settlements, opening up the possibility of back-migration into Iberia. Indeed, Central
    European Bell Beaker samples have been observed to possess both steppe-related
    ancestry and R1b-P312 Y-chromosomes [4,5]. Furthermore, through the analysis of
    modern samples, it has been proposed that the spread of Western R1b-lineages fits
    with the temporal range of the Corded Ware and Bell Beaker complexes [33]......
    Gerard Corcoran
    R1b-DF21-S5456-S6166, H1C1

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    Regarding Celtic and Indo European:

    Two alternate theories for the origin and spread of the Indo-European language family
    have dominated discourse for over two decades: first that migrating early farmers
    disseminated a tongue of Neolithic Anatolian origin and second, that the third
    Millennium migrations from the Steppe imposed a new language throughout Europe
    [37,38] [4]. Iberia is unusual in harbouring a surviving pre-Indo-European language,
    Euskera, and inscription evidence at the dawn of history suggests that pre-IndoEuropean
    speech prevailed over a majority of its eastern territory with Celtic-related
    language emerging in the west
    [39]. Our results showing that predominantly Anatolian derived ancestry in the Neolithic extended to the Atlantic edge strengthen the
    suggestion that Euskara is unlikely to be a Mesolithic remnant [17,18]. Also our
    observed definite, but limited, Bronze Age influx resonates with the incomplete IndoEuropean
    linguistic conversion on the peninsula, although there are subsequent genetic changes in Iberia and defining a horizon for language shift is not yet possible. This contrasts with northern Europe which both lacks evidence for earlier language strata and experienced a more profound Bronze Age migration.
    This fits Koch Atlantic Europe in the Metal Ages map showing IE eg Celtic west of a dividing line and non IE eg Basque east of that line. He explains this through using the Atlantic Cist Tradition. Interesting that the Portuguese Bronze Age Cluster is part of the Atlantic Neolithic Cluster.

    Atlantic Europe in the Metal Ages
    koch-2.jpg

    Atlantic Cist Tradition
    KochABA.jpg
    Last edited by Heber; 05-11-2017 at 10:16 AM.
    Gerard Corcoran
    R1b-DF21-S5456-S6166, H1C1

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    I just finished reading this paper and I found it rather interesting. Despite the fact the Bronze Age Portugal has clear discontinuity in Y lineages, there is no element of CHG among the Bronze Age elite burials. The paper does suggest the males arrived from Central Europe but did not completely replace the earlier population like they did in NW Europe.

    That said, I can only speculate that the CHG was absorbed by the central Europeans through marrying CW females? Whenever the initial P312+ men arrived in Portugal, they hadn't yet absorbed this CHG admixture. The authors seem adamant in still calling it "steppe mixture", despite the fact CHG is lacking in the equation. Perhaps a better approximation is EHG related input.

    The modern Iberian population containing CHG can be explained through more recent population movements, perhaps during the late Bronze Age, Iron Age, or even later.
    YDNA: R1b-Z220 (A7066+) (1800's Stepney, London(Bethnal Green), UK George Wood b. 1782
    maternal-grandfather YDNA: ? Gurr, George 1843, Feversham, Kent, England.
    maternal-grandmother YDNA: ? Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggrandfather YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton mdka Ireland(?) < 1800s

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    Regarding some Portugal samples showing what may be EHG without CHG, I predicted this would be the case a few days ago. LaBrana can be modeled pretty well as ~45% Loschbour, 30% ElMiron, 20% Villabruna/KO1, and 5% EHG. Pockets of WHG with even slightly higher EHG shouldn't be inconceivable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kale View Post
    Regarding some Portugal samples showing what may be EHG without CHG, I predicted this would be the case a few days ago. LaBrana can be modeled pretty well as ~45% Loschbour, 30% ElMiron, 20% Villabruna/KO1, and 5% EHG. Pockets of WHG with even slightly higher EHG shouldn't be inconceivable.

    If we get the raw data and the fit is much better to Latvia_HG, then he likely came from the more eastern hunter gatherers and not the Atlantic HG ones.

    The MBA Portugese data seems inconsistent with the "kurgan" shifted data hinted at from Lalueza-Fox around 2000 BC which I can only assume has a non-zero value of CHG.

    http://eurogenes.blogspot.ca/2017/02...-atlantic.html
    Last edited by ADW_1981; 05-11-2017 at 04:18 AM.
    YDNA: R1b-Z220 (A7066+) (1800's Stepney, London(Bethnal Green), UK George Wood b. 1782
    maternal-grandfather YDNA: ? Gurr, George 1843, Feversham, Kent, England.
    maternal-grandmother YDNA: ? Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggrandfather YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton mdka Ireland(?) < 1800s

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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    I just finished reading this paper and I found it rather interesting. Despite the fact the Bronze Age Portugal has clear discontinuity in Y lineages, there is no element of CHG among the Bronze Age elite burials. The paper does suggest the males arrived from Central Europe but did not completely replace the earlier population like they did in NW Europe.
    So... it seems to recall to my memory the words of Lalueza-Fox about the arrival of the Kurgans in the Bronze age and their monopoly over reproduction. They weren't in majority but they managed to spread their lineage thanks to their prominent social position in Iberia.

    Last question... where did you find informations about the burials and their élite status?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeanL View Post
    The Beaker paper also shows a couple of R1b1 samples in Iberian beakers without any Steppe components. Granted they are not R1b-P312 derived; but I think one of them is just very low resolution; so it was not tested for the M269/L51/P312 markers.
    I0261 is the very low coverage Iberian BB. It is ancestral for R1b1a1a2a which is L23 in the ISOGG tree used by the Olalde et al. 2107 study so he is ancestral for L51, L151, and P312.
    I0257 has a coverage slightly higher than the I0806 BB sample that Rocca found to be positive for DF27 so once someone checks his calls we'll see if he is negative for L23, L51, or L151 or any of the equivalents. If there are any calls on any of those, and there should be, I expect at least one call to be negative at the L51 or higher level.

    Quote Originally Posted by jeanL View Post
    We desperately need the supplementary info to see the D-stats evidence of Steppe input into the Portuguese Bronze Age sample. We also need to investigate if the higher Steppe affinity in Portuguese BA is due to the visible increase of Hunter Gatherer ancestry with respect to the previous Neolithic Portuguese or if is due to a Steppe input. In theory an increase in Hunter Gatherer ancestry without CHG will still cause the Portuguese Bronze Age to be closer to the Steppe than their predecessors. The "washed away" theory is a bit shaky; because none of the other Beakers have had their CHG washed away. Again we need to see the authors logic to assign a Steppe input to the Portuguese BA samples.
    I wasn't stuck on that hypothesis even though if we use the assumptions that Iberian introgression into non-Iberian Bell Beaker was very limited, that all Steppe ancestry in western Europe originally had CHG, and that the P312 subclades only have several hundred years between them, then that is what seems to be the most logical conclusion. I don't think that the supplementary info will provide enough data to tell us what happened with enough certainty for most people to be satisfied and that's why I mentioned more samples can possibly answer that question. I should have worded it as "it's possible that only more samples will answer that question" instead of "only more samples can possibly answer that question".

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmandoR1b View Post
    I0261 is the very low coverage Iberian BB. It is ancestral for R1b1a1a2a which is L23 in the ISOGG tree used by the Olalde et al. 2107 study so he is ancestral for L51, L151, and P312.
    I0257 has a coverage slightly higher than the I0806 BB sample that Rocca found to be positive for DF27 so once someone checks his calls we'll see if he is negative for L23, L51, or L151 or any of the equivalents. If there are any calls on any of those, and there should be, I expect at least one call to be negative at the L51 or higher level.
    Could I0261 be a descendant of the ElTrocs3 farmers? R1b seems to have a rather strange history, in the sense that with the findings in the German MN "Hunter Gatherers" it seems it did not mixed with farmers, or at least it seems that they kept their Hunting and Gathering lifestyle. We need to find out if I0261 is P297 derived, or even M269 derived, because that could be of importance, specially with the findings of ATP3 which was per genetiker derived from one of the SNPs ancestral to M269 but on the same line. Also I0257 needs to be studied. They can provide clues as to the R1b situation in Western Europe.


    Quote Originally Posted by ArmandoR1b View Post
    I wasn't stuck on that hypothesis even though if we use the assumptions that Iberian introgression into non-Iberian Bell Beaker was very limited, that all Steppe ancestry in western Europe originally had CHG, and that the P312 subclades only have several hundred years between them, then that is what seems to be the most logical conclusion. I don't think that the supplementary info will provide enough data to tell us what happened with enough certainty for most people to be satisfied and that's why I mentioned more samples can possibly answer that question. I should have worded it as "it's possible that only more samples will answer that question" instead of "only more samples can possibly answer that question".
    Aren't some of the Rathlin genomes only a couple of hundred years older than the Portuguese Bronze Age genomes? I think we need to see if the lack of CHG is due to an artifact of Admixture, or if they really lack CHG. In wonder what D stat could help test that. For example:

    (Outgroup, Portuguese_MN, Portuguese_BA, CHG) might not be informative enough because of the intrinsic relationship between EEF and CHG.

    They appear to be confident that the increase in WHG was due to Steppe influence. Is it because (Outgroup, Portuguese_MN, Portuguese_BA, Yamnaya) support that, and (Outgroup, Portuguese_MN, Portuguese_BA, WHG) is not significant? What about (Outgroup, Portuguese_MN, Portuguese_BA, SHG) or (Outgroup, Portuguese_MN, Portuguese_BA, EHG). Again, I'm trying to brainstorm a good D-stat to see if the Portuguese_BA truly have excess Steppe(EHG+CHG) or simply EHG ancestry without the CHG.

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