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Thread: The Beaker Phenomenon And The Genomic Transformation Of Northwest Europe - Olalde

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bas View Post
    Skimming through so far, these parts I found quite interesting:

    ''Among the different continental Beaker Complex groups analysed in our dataset, individuals from Oostwoud (Province of Noord-Holland, The Netherlands) are the most closely related to the great majority of the Beaker Complex individuals from southern Britain (n=14). They had almost identical Steppe ancestry proportions (Fig. 2a), the highest shared genetic drift(Extended Data Fig. 4b) and were symmetrically related to other ancient populations using f4- statistics (Extended Data Fig. 4a), showing that they are consistent with being derived from the same ancestral population without additional mixture into either group''

    (On British BA population turnover) ''In either case, our results imply a minimum of 932% local population turnover by the Middle Bronze Age''

    ''Derived alleles at rs12913832 (SLC45A2) and rs16891982 (HERC2/OCA2), which contribute to reduced skin and eye pigmentation in Europeans,dramatically increased in frequency during the Beaker and Bronze Age periods. Thus, the arrival of migrants associated with the Beaker Complex significantly altered the pigmentation phenotypes of British populations. However, the lactase persistence allele at SNP rs4988235 remained at very low frequencies in our dataset both in Britain and continental Europe, showing that the major increase in its frequency in Britain, as in mainland Europe,occurred in the last 3,500 years''

    ''We find that the great majority of Beaker Complex individuals outside of Iberia derive a large portion of their ancestry from Steppe populations whereas in Iberia, such ancestry is absent in all sampled individuals, with the exception of two (I0461 and I0462) from the Arroyal I site in northern Spain''

    ''A new finding that emerges from our analysis is that Neolithic individuals from southern France and Britain also show a greater affinity to Iberian Early Neolithic farmers than to central European Early Neolithic farmers (Fig. 2b), similar to previous results obtained in a Neolithic farmer genome from Ireland''

    And also U152-L2 in BB Hungary, which could mean something for Italic or Italo-Celtic
    According to many palaeolinguists, the Urheimat of the Italic languages is the Panonnian plain.

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave-V View Post
    Equally important in terms of placing L21, here are the other P312 lines with the same translation (i.e. Major SNP column is my add):
    Thanks, Dave.

    It is important to recognize P312 could mean DF27, or actually probably means DF27.

    My biggest take aways are that there is not much difference in this ages but the eldest ages seem to be from the Rhine on over to Hungary. That doesn't really narrow things much but I am pretty confident now that DF27 and P312 in general are interlopers in to Iberia and not sourced from there.

    Similarly, it is clear that P312 types are not sourced from the British Isles nor the Atlantic facade in general.

    The easternmost P312 type among the ancient DNA seems to be from Hungary. Am I missing anything?

    At the same, the easternmost U106 type we have among ancient DNA is Sweden.

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  5. #23
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    There were a few of us who noticed the obvious differences between the kurgan type of Bell Beaker and early Iberian Bell Beaker and thought that might mean that the latter was not R1b and lacked steppe autosomal dna.

    It's nice to have this paper prove to me that I wasn't crazy.

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post215055

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...ll=1#post75297

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...ll=1#post93244

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post102393
     


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    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36982 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982)

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    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
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    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    There were a few of us who noticed the obvious differences between the kurgan type of Bell Beaker and early Iberian Bell Beaker and thought that might mean that the latter was not R1b and lacked steppe autosomal dna.

    It's nice to have this paper prove to me that I wasn't crazy.

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post215055

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...ll=1#post75297

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...ll=1#post93244

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post102393
    The Bronze Age (~1800 BC)P312+ samples in Portugal lack a CHG component, but the authors still suggest an eastern origin (EHG?) for at least some of their increased hunter-gatherer component. Since we know the Bell Beakers of central Europe had CHG at the time of their movement to Britain, what does this say about the settlement of Portugal by P312+ males in the Bronze Age? Do we have any Copper/Bronze age samples from eastern Europe without CHG?
    YDNA: R1b-Z220 (A7066+) (1800's Stepney, London(Bethnal Green), UK George Wood b. 1782
    maternal-grandfather YDNA: ? Gurr, George 1843, Feversham, Kent, England.
    maternal-grandmother YDNA: ? Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggrandfather YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton mdka Ireland(?) < 1800s

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  9. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    There were a few of us who noticed the obvious differences between the kurgan type of Bell Beaker and early Iberian Bell Beaker and thought that might mean that the latter was not R1b and lacked steppe autosomal dna.
    Are you sure that you only said this four times?

    You may turn out to be right for the wrong reasons. I'm still trawling slowly through the Olalde Big Beaker paper, but have got as far as their earliest sample from Iberia with a steppe-related autosomal component. She is I0462/Roy5/SU25, dated 2465–2211 calBCE from Burgos. That's OK in time and place for reflux. But hark ye! She was buried in a re-used megalithic grave. As with other examples of megaliths re-used by Bell Beaker people in Iberia, the British Isles and northern France, it is a complex picture of re-use, but in a changed way, as explained by Catriona Gibson 2016. In this case the former Neolithic collective grave was extensively re-modelled.

    To be honest, I suspected that you had some instinct about early Iberian BB based on R1b phylogeny.
    Last edited by Jean M; 05-11-2017 at 07:40 AM.

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    I'm having a senior moment & can't find the three supplementary tables. Help!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by castle3 View Post
    I'm having a senior moment & can't find the three supplementary tables. Help!!!
    http://biorxiv.org/highwire/filestre...0/135962-1.pdf

    http://biorxiv.org/highwire/filestre.../135962-2.xlsx
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    Quote Originally Posted by castle3 View Post
    I'm having a senior moment & can't find the three supplementary tables. Help!!!
    They are three tabs all in one data file.

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    Fascinating stuff, confirms what a lot of people have been saying about Bell Beaker bringing R1b to Britain.

    I was quite surprised at their assertion though that BB replaced >90% of Neolithic inhabitants within a few hundred years. How can they be sure that pockets of Neolithic people didn't hold out for much longer here and there during the Bronze Age, and that their remains simply haven't been tested yet.

    Looking at the y-dna profiles, then 95% of BB Complex and Early Bronze Age samples are R1b (n=19) but surely this sample is biased towards Bell Beaker associated remains so R1b is bound to be high as that that is the BB y-dna signal.

    Looking at the Middle Bronze Age samples (n=4) then R1b is 75%. 1 of these individuals is an I2a from Scottish Middle Bronze Age.

    I don't know, just think they need more Bronze Age samples from wider geographic dispersal in Britain, to be sure of 90% replacement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by avalon View Post
    Fascinating stuff, confirms what a lot of people have been saying about Bell Beaker bringing R1b to Britain.

    I was quite surprised at their assertion though that BB replaced >90% of Neolithic inhabitants within a few hundred years. How can they be sure that pockets of Neolithic people didn't hold out for much longer here and there during the Bronze Age, and that their remains simply haven't been tested yet.

    Looking at the y-dna profiles, then 95% of BB Complex and Early Bronze Age samples are R1b (n=19) but surely this sample is biased towards Bell Beaker associated remains so R1b is bound to be high as that that is the BB y-dna signal.

    Looking at the Middle Bronze Age samples (n=4) then R1b is 75%. 1 of these individuals is an I2a from Scottish Middle Bronze Age.

    I don't know, just think they need more Bronze Age samples from wider geographic dispersal in Britain, to be sure of 90% replacement.
    I'm a little puzzled by their assumption of 90%. Afterall R1b today is 40-60%? I think the key might be that they compared Beaker people to Neolithic people. I think a random sample of LBA individuals would show a replacement of 20-30% (assuming there was a male bias that caused R1b percentage to be higher than the autosomal replacement)
    Last edited by rafc; 05-11-2017 at 09:04 AM.

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