Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 58

Thread: Huns among Anglo-Saxons? No, no and again no!

  1. #21
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,520
    Sex
    Location
    South East Wales UK
    Ethnicity
    Welsh
    Nationality
    British
    Y-DNA
    R1bS21 - S11136
    mtDNA
    J1c1b2a

    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    How about:


    ??

    The problem here is that I can't devote a lot of space to this one item.
    what about "an un-related Germanic group for which there appears to be some linguistic (or literary) evidence" ?

    Not to prolong the discussion but I'm wondering whether the "brown people" referred to earlier, assuming they existed, could have been mistakenly thought to have had some association with the Huns if they had a distinct and different appearance? Just a passing thought. John

  2. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to JohnHowellsTyrfro For This Useful Post:

     Finn (07-06-2017), Power77 (07-09-2017)

  3. #22
    Registered Users
    Posts
    649
    Sex
    Location
    Groningen
    Ethnicity
    North Sea Germanic
    Nationality
    NL
    Y-DNA
    E-V22

    Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    How about:


    ??

    The problem here is that I can't devote a lot of space to this one item.
    Jean I think it's quite simple the Hunni (Lat) or Hunnen/Hünnen are known as a Saxon tribe (Northeast Netherlands/ Westphalia area). When Bede mentions the Hunni in a list of tribes that went to the Isles, I guess this tribe is the nr 1 candidate!

    What does Bede sum up:
    Sunt autem Fresones, Rugini, Danai, Hunni, Antiqui Saxones, Boructuari; sunt alii perplures hisdem in partibus populi paganis adhuc ritibus servientis.

    Stands for:
    Fresones, Frisians
    Rugini, Island Rügen
    Dania, Danes
    Antique Saxons, Saxons from the Weser Elbe area, old heartland
    Bructeri, Münster area

    Common thing: all North Sea German or Ingvaeonic tribes that went oversea!

    And than between all those tribes, are the Hunni mentioned. And when sources (like the etymological dictionary, that's no pulp fiction) point at a Saxon tribe from the Northeast Netherlands and/or Westphalian area, than that's in the Bede sum up of the Ingevaeonic part a missing part of the Ingevaeonic tribe puzzle.....it fits Jean!
    Last edited by Finn; 07-07-2017 at 09:02 AM.
    "Finn, son of Folcwald,
    should honour the Danes.."

    Beowulf

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to Finn For This Useful Post:

     Power77 (07-09-2017)

  5. #23
    Registered Users
    Posts
    649
    Sex
    Location
    Groningen
    Ethnicity
    North Sea Germanic
    Nationality
    NL
    Y-DNA
    E-V22

    Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnHowellsTyrfro View Post
    what about "an un-related Germanic group for which there appears to be some linguistic (or literary) evidence" ?

    Not to prolong the discussion but I'm wondering whether the "brown people" referred to earlier, assuming they existed, could have been mistakenly thought to have had some association with the Huns if they had a distinct and different appearance? Just a passing thought. John
    When the Hunni where a North Eastern Netherland, Westfalia tribe that may be was absorbed or gathered by the Saxons (the Saxons were very expansive before and during the big migration), than this population had deep "proto-germanic" roots, they had Ertebølle/TRB/CW/BB/Nordic Bronze Age "blood" in their veins.....

    Last side kick, passing thought remark:
    They are my ancestors too, I guess people from this area could have a higher HG component in their genotype, may be this had also a reflection in the phenotype? I only know that people here are the highest in the world, so "hun" in the sense of "high" not besides reality (but honest that went in the twentieth century sky high, but could be partly genetic). I'am 6 foot 4 I have brown eyes, but that's a small minoriity here....
    Last edited by Finn; 07-06-2017 at 09:07 PM.
    "Finn, son of Folcwald,
    should honour the Danes.."

    Beowulf

  6. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Finn For This Useful Post:

     A Norfolk L-M20 (07-07-2017), JohnHowellsTyrfro (07-06-2017), Power77 (07-09-2017)

  7. #24
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    7,299
    Sex
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Nationality
    British
    mtDNA
    H

    United Kingdom
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnHowellsTyrfro View Post
    what about "an un-related Germanic group for which there appears to be some linguistic (or literary) evidence" ?
    Nope. I either pick a specific tribe and give the specific evidence, or I simply open up the possibility that it referred to a Germanic group. The latter seems perfectly possible from the fact that Germanic etymologies leap to the eye, as Finn has been demonstrating.

  8. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Jean M For This Useful Post:

     JMcB (07-07-2017), JohnHowellsTyrfro (07-06-2017), Nibelung (07-06-2017), Power77 (07-09-2017)

  9. #25
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,889

    IMO, neither German sagas nor Bede are wrong about the Hoons/Hooni (I think that is how it was pronounced not as in hundred but rhyming with soon).
    It is clear after their defeat at the hands of the Hoons, the Germans and Hoons intermixed and the Hoons became a component of the Germans. The Nibelungenlied makes the Hoons heroic and a major component of the saga. Etzel is undoubtedly Attila the Hoon.
    http://www.yorku.ca/inpar/nibelung_armour.pdf
    http://www.dominiopublico.gov.br/dow...o/gu007321.pdf

    As far as Bede goes I see no reason for him to introduce the Huns for no reason. He obviously know who they were as in other locations he gives their history:
    "A.d. 381. Valens, in association with Gratian and Valentinian, the sons of his brother Valentinian, reigned four years. This emperor enacted a law that monks should be subject to military service, the punishment of refusal being, to be beaten to death with staves. In this reign the nation of the Huns, which had long been confined within inaccessible mountains, inflamed by a sudden madness, burst forth against the Goths, put them completely to the rout, and drove them from their ancient settlements; the Goths then passed the Danube, and were received into the empire by Valens, without the necessity of delivering up their arms ; there, driven by the rapacious avarice of Maximus and by famine to rebel, they defeated the army of Valens, and dispersing themselves over Thrace, spread throughout the whole country massacre, conflagration, and rapine
    "
    A.d. 387.- Gratian, associated with his brother Valentinian, reigned six years, during which period Theodosius, being proclaimed emperor by him, gained many signal victories over those vast Scythian nations, the Alans, Huns, and Goths, and was the cause of the resignation by the Arians, (to whom his subsequent reconciliation with those tribes was intolerable,) of the churches which they had occupied by force for forty years."

    "In the year of our Lord 423, Theodosius, the younger, next after Honorius, being the forty-fifth from Augustus, governed the Roman empire twenty-six years. In the eighth year of his reign, Palladius1 was sent by Celestinus, the Roman pontiff, to the Scots that believed in Christ, to be their first bishop. In the twentythird" year of his reign, Aetius, a renowned person, being also a patrician, discharged his third consulship with Symmachus for his colleague. To him the wretched remains of the Britons sent a letter,' which began thus :—" To Aetius, thrice Consul, the groans of the Britons." And in the sequel of the letter they thus expressed their calamities :—" The barbarians drive us to the sea; the sea drives us back to the barbarians: between them we are exposed to two sorts of death; we are either murdered or drowned." Yet neither could all this procure any assistance from him, as he was at that time engaged in most dangerous wars with Bledla and Attila, kings of the Huns. And though, the year before this, Bledla had been murdered by the treachery of his brother Attila, yet Attila himself remained so intolerable an enemy to the Republic, that he ravaged almost all Europe, invading and destroying cities and castles. At the same time there was a famine at Constantinople, and shortly after, a plague followed, and a great part of the walls of that city, with fifty-seven towers, fell to the ground. Many cities also went to ruin, and the famine and pestilential state of the air destroyed many thousands of men and cattle."
    https://books.google.com/books?id=iSADAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA321

  10. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to parasar For This Useful Post:

     JohnHowellsTyrfro (07-07-2017), Power77 (07-09-2017)

  11. #26
    Registered Users
    Posts
    259
    Sex
    Y-DNA
    R1a-CTS11962>L1029
    mtDNA
    H80

    European Union Germany Italy
    Huns could have been in Britain as part of the remnant army of the West Roman Empire; Stilicho and Gratian did employ Hunnic auxiliaries, and the 'Notilia Dignitatum (XL/37)' lists a 'praefectus alae Sabinianae, Hunno' - indicating a Hun fort at Hadrians wall; Saxons were prob in Britain before the actual migration/invasion as well, depending on what is meant by the Saxon Shore (litus Saxonicum) i.e. was it a bollwerk-line against the Saxons or was it a bollwerk-line defended by a certain contingent of Saxons against other Germanic raiders;

    Eutropius - IX/XXI (3rd century ad)
    During this period, Carausius, who, though of very mean birth, had gained extraordinary reputation by a course of active service in war, having received a commission in his post at Bononia, to clear the sea, which the Franks and Saxons infested, along the coast of Belgica and Armorica
    Last edited by alexfritz; 07-07-2017 at 04:44 AM.

  12. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to alexfritz For This Useful Post:

     JohnHowellsTyrfro (07-07-2017), Power77 (07-09-2017)

  13. #27
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,520
    Sex
    Location
    South East Wales UK
    Ethnicity
    Welsh
    Nationality
    British
    Y-DNA
    R1bS21 - S11136
    mtDNA
    J1c1b2a

    The usual question seems to be where did the Huns go and the usual answer seems to be something like "they disappeared from history".
    I suppose the problem is that trying to pick out any surviving Hun Y DNA from other earlier migrations would be impossible at least in some regions.
    This map, of haplogroup Q distribution, if accurate, is quite interesting though, even if it has nothing to do with the Huns. It doesn't seem to show a presence in NW Europe, excluding Scandinavia and the UK. John

    Haplogroup-Q.gif



    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_Q_Y-DNA.shtml

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to JohnHowellsTyrfro For This Useful Post:

     Power77 (07-09-2017)

  15. #28
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    7,299
    Sex
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Nationality
    British
    mtDNA
    H

    United Kingdom
    Quote Originally Posted by alexfritz View Post
    Huns could have been in Britain as part of the remnant army of the West Roman Empire; Stilicho and Gratian did employ Hunnic auxiliaries, and the 'Notilia Dignitatum (XL/37)' lists a 'praefectus alae Sabinianae, Hunno' - indicating a Hun fort at Hadrians wall;
    That does not refer to Huns. It refers to a place https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunnum It is part of a list in which the place-name comes after the title of the officer:

    32. Item per lineam ualli:
    33. Tribunus cohortis quartae Lingonum, Segeduno
    34. Tribunus cohortis primae Cornouiorum, Ponte Aeli
    35. Praefectus alae primae Asturum, Conderco
    36. Tribunus cohortis primae Frixagorum, Uindobala
    37. Praefectus alae Sabinianae, Hunno
    38. Praefectus alae secundae Asturum, Cilurno
    39. Tribunus cohortis primae Batauorum, Procolitia
    40. Tribunus cohortis primae Tungrorum, Borcouicio
    41. Tribunus cohortis quartae Gallorum, Uindolana
    42. Tribunus cohortis primae Asturum, Aesica
    43. Tribunus cohortis secundae Dalmatarum, Magnis
    44. Tribunus cohortis primae Aeliae Dacorum, Amboglanna
    45. Praefectus alae Petrianae, Uxelodunum or Petrianis
    46. 'Luguuallii'
    47. Praefectus numeri Maurorum Aurelianorum, Aballaba
    48. Tribunus cohortis secundae Lingonum, Congauata
    49. Tribunus cohortis primae Hispaniorum, Axeloduno
    50. Tribunus cohortis secundae Thracum, Gabrosenti
    51. Tribunus cohortus primae Aeliae classicae, Tunnocelo
    52. Tribunus cohortis primae Morinorum, Glannibanta
    53. Tribunus cohortis tertiae Neruiorum, Alione
    54. Cuneus Sarmatarum, Bremetenraco
    55. Praefectus alae primae Herculeae, Olenaco
    56. Tribunus cohortis sextae Neruiorum, Uirosido

    Saxons were prob in Britain before the actual migration/invasion as well, depending on what is meant by the Saxon Shore (litus Saxonicum) i.e. was it a bollwerk-line against the Saxons or was it a bollwerk-line defended by a certain contingent of Saxons against other Germanic raiders;
    The idea that the Saxon Shore was manned by Saxons has been discarded by serious scholars. It is the sort of idea that occurs to people who only know the name 'Saxon Shore' and nothing else. There is no evidence from the archaeology of any Saxon settlement in Britain before the AD 430s or thereabouts.

    There were Germanic units in the Roman army in Britain, as I mention in my draft text - the Batavi and Tungri.
    Last edited by Jean M; 07-07-2017 at 07:52 AM.

  16. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Jean M For This Useful Post:

     alexfritz (07-07-2017), JohnHowellsTyrfro (07-07-2017), Power77 (07-09-2017)

  17. #29
    Registered Users
    Posts
    649
    Sex
    Location
    Groningen
    Ethnicity
    North Sea Germanic
    Nationality
    NL
    Y-DNA
    E-V22

    Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    T
    There were Germanic units in the Roman army in Britain, as I mention in my draft text - the Batavi and Tungri.
    The Batavi were most probably Celtic (river area in the center of the Netherlands).
    Besides that there was a cohort Frisiavonum (Frisians) and from the Tuhanti/Tubanti, nowadays Twente (close relates tot the Hunni).
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuneus_Frisionum
    "Finn, son of Folcwald,
    should honour the Danes.."

    Beowulf

  18. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Finn For This Useful Post:

     Jean M (07-07-2017), Power77 (07-09-2017)

  19. #30
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    7,299
    Sex
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Nationality
    British
    mtDNA
    H

    United Kingdom
    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    The Batavi were most probably Celtic (river area in the center of the Netherlands).
    No they weren't. Here's what I say:

    Tacitus tells us that the brave Batavi, who lived mainly on an island in the Rhine, were once part of the Chatti. They had broken away from them in a civil war. [Tacitus, Germania, 29.] As he explains, the large island on which they lived was formed by the split of the Rhine into the Rhine and Waal rivers, [Tacitus, Annals, II.6.] in what is now the Netherlands. This district today is called Betuwe in Dutch, which was long assumed to reflect the name of the tribe. Yet there is a straightforward etymology from Germanic words for 'good' and 'island'. So the group of Chatti who moved there had acquired a new tribal name from their location.[Toorians, L. 2006. Betuwe en Hessen, Bataven en Chatten, Naamkunde, 36, 179-190. ]

  20. The Following User Says Thank You to Jean M For This Useful Post:

     Power77 (07-09-2017)

Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Huns in Anglo Saxon England?
    By JohnHowellsTyrfro in forum History (Medieval)
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 02-21-2017, 07:26 AM
  2. Frisian Genetics and the UK (Anglo Saxons)
    By JohnHowellsTyrfro in forum R1b-U106
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 01-29-2017, 11:16 AM
  3. Replies: 475
    Last Post: 08-23-2016, 05:26 PM
  4. Replies: 4
    Last Post: 07-14-2016, 04:21 AM
  5. Did the Anglo-Saxons come from Germany?
    By Alanson in forum General
    Replies: 33
    Last Post: 02-14-2016, 12:31 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •