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Thread: Origins of Germanic

  1. #361
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Thanks for the title Pylsteen.

    Schrijver concludes:

    The early break-up of Proto-Germanic into West and North- Germanic was probably engineered when speakers of a lost northern European language (or languages) with a peculiar vowel and consonant system came into contact with Germanic, to which they ultimately switched. A lost language with a sound system with very similar properties was probably involved in turning Finno-Saamic into Proto-Saami. The absorption of this group of languages accompanied the spread of Finno-Saamic in Finland and in central and northern Sweden and
    Norway, and the spread of Germanic in southern Scandinavia and presumably
    the northern German plain,including the northern part of the Netherlands(
    chapter V .4).
    ,
    Now it's your turn to go "up against Schrijver" my Anglo- Saxon niece!
    Yes I have that book, but ended up not using it because Ringe 2006* seemed more useful for my purposes, and avoids Schriver's dubious digression into Irish. But I don't think the extract above is a problem. The section that he references there is V.4, in which he says:

    Once Germanic had arisen in a northeastern European zone of contact between Indo-European and Balto-Finnic, probably in the course of the first millennium BC, it began to spread. This spread was tremendously successful and lasted throughout the first millennium AD, bringing Germanic languages from Poland to the British Isles and from northern Scandinavia to Spain, North Africa, and the Balkans. As a result of this spectacular increase in territory and numbers of speakers, Germanic inevitably began to fragment into dialects as distances between speakers grew and contacts with different languages became prominent, as we have seen in earlier chapters. This section deals with the earliest stages of that fragmentation and with the way in which the history of the Saami languages is implicated in the break-up.
    That is absolutely conventional for Germanic studies. Proto-Germanic is seen as dating no earlier than 500 BC and spreading from about AD 200.

    *Ringe, D. 2006. From Proto-Indo-European to Proto-Germanic: A Linguistic History of English vol. 1. Oxford: Oxford University Press.
    Last edited by Jean M; 10-13-2017 at 12:15 PM.

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  3. #362
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    Yes I have that book, but ended up not using it because Ringe 2006* seemed more useful for my purposes, and avoids Schriver's dubious digression into Irish. But I don't think the extract above is a problem. The section that he references there is V.4, in which he says:



    That is absolutely conventional for Germanic studies. Proto-Germanic is seen as dating no earlier than 500 BC and spreading from about AD 200.

    *Ringe, D. 2006. From Proto-Indo-European to Proto-Germanic: A Linguistic History of English vol. 1. Oxford: Oxford University Press.
    Yes but no Celts behind the North Dutch tree, as you presumed. I supposed a early (proto-) German spread in line with NW Germany and Southern Scandinavia. You opposed it refering to Schrijver....

    But no offense, the case is more and more clear!
    Last edited by Finn; 10-13-2017 at 01:53 PM.

  4. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pascal C View Post
    Is it possible that a percentage your, and others', genes in the area may have been the result of reinforcement by later Germanic or Scandinavian settlement?
    Always possible though not recent (1600>) . There was an influx during the early middle ages. And also before my auDNA region was in a kind of North Sea circulation....
    "Finn, son of Folcwald,
    should honour the Danes.."

    Beowulf

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  6. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Yes but no Celts behind the North Dutch tree, as you presumed. I supposed a early (proto-) German spread in line with NW Germany and Southern Scandinavia. You opposed it referring to Schrijver..
    I think we are talking at cross purposes. Schrijver, Language Contact and the Origins of the Germanic Languages (2014) is not about prehistoric or early historic Celtic-speakers in the Netherlands (though he makes one brief mention of the possibility). He has published other works on that topic, listed in previous posts. Schrijver 2014 puts forward several ideas on the linguistic contacts of Germanic and sums up like this:

    The Dawn of Germanic

    In the preceding chapters, the foundational events that gave rise to the English, Dutch, and German languages have been found to be intimately connected with the assimilation of populations that originally spoke Celtic, Latin, or both. The linguistic demonstration of this assimilation presented in this book is new, but the idea that Germanic is, relatively speaking, a newcomer in Britain as well as in the Netherlands and Germany is not. Amongst historical linguists and archaeologists who have devoted attention to the issue, there is widespread agreement that the place where the Germanic branch of Indo-European originated is northern Europe, to be more precise, probably northernmost Germany, Denmark, and southern Sweden.
    This is the consensus view among linguists, which I have followed. Schrivjer is not, repeat not, saying that Pre-Proto-Germanic spread into the Netherlands prior to the development of Proto-Germanic. His dating and geography for Germanic is conventional.

    I can see how you may have been misled by his wording in one place.
    Last edited by Jean M; 10-13-2017 at 02:12 PM.

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  8. #365
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    " Once Germanic had arisen in a northeastern European zone of contact between Indo-European and Balto-Finnic, probably in the course of the first millennium BC, it began to spread. This spread was tremendously successful and lasted throughout the first millennium AD, bringing Germanic languages from Poland to the British Isles and from northern Scandinavia to Spain, North Africa, and the Balkans. As a result of this spectacular increase in territory and numbers of speakers, Germanic inevitably began to fragment into dialects as distances between speakers grew and contacts with different languages became prominent, as we have seen in earlier chapters. This section deals with the earliest stages of that fragmentation and with the way in which the history of the Saami languages is implicated in the break-up."


    Very interesting. Would be an initial spread in the late hay days of the Nordic Bronze Age. So the Nordic Culture Circle (Lothar Kilian 1988):



    was probably responsible for the spread in this area.

    Curios how Germanic developed vis a vis incoming people from the Tumulus and Urnfield cultures ("proto-celts" ).

    Pylsteen any idea?
    Last edited by Finn; 10-13-2017 at 04:33 PM.
    "Finn, son of Folcwald,
    should honour the Danes.."

    Beowulf

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  10. #366
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    Here is Schrijver 2014 on Frisian:

    It is generally agreed that all these similarities between Coastal Dutch, Frisian, and English date from the early medieval period and that they are connected with the same population movements that brought the Anglo-Saxons to Britain. In the later Roman period, the North Sea and Channel coasts were frequently raided by pirates from the north. The general Roman term for those raiders was Saxones , Saxons, a name that no doubt covered various ethnic groups. From the early fifth century onwards, when Roman control of the area was completely given up, raiding was accompanied by settlement. Between the fi fth and eighth centuries, a common culture joined the English and Continental sides of the North Sea and the Channel. In the estuaries of the Rhine, Maas, and Schelt, this culture is connected with the name of the Frisians. ....

    Coastal Dutch is the language of the ‘Saxon’ pirate-settlers of late Antiquity and the early medieval period. It is an early form of Frisian. One might object to using the label Frisian for Coastal Dutch in Flanders, because as far as we know Flanders was never part of the realm of the Frisians, which did include North and South Holland and Zeeland. As so often in similar cases, however, historians and linguists use the term Frisian with different meanings. For a historian, Frisians are persons who lived in Frisia and took part in aspects of its culture to such an extent that this shaped a common identity. To linguists, Frisians are people who spoke Frisian. The two do not always match.
    Actually I think I will cite him on that.
    Last edited by Jean M; 10-13-2017 at 02:21 PM.

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  12. #367
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    "Very interesting. Would be an initial spread in the late hay days of the Nordic Bronze Age.
    No. Schrijver 2014 is NOT saying that. If you don't believe me - check with him. Saying that Germanic spread to the Netherlands in the Bronze Age would make him a total looney in the eyes of other linguists. He isn't.
    Last edited by Jean M; 10-13-2017 at 02:20 PM.

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  14. #368
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    I think we are talking at cross purposes. Schrijver, Language Contact and the Origins of the Germanic Languages (2014) is not about prehistoric or early historic Celtic-speakers in the Netherlands (though he makes one brief mention of the possibility). He has published other works on that topic, listed in previous posts. Schrijver 2014 puts forward several ideas on the linguistic contacts of Germanic and sums up like this:

    This is the consensus view among linguists, which I have followed. Schrivjer is not, repeat not, saying that Pre-Proto-Germanic spread into the Netherlands prior to the development of Proto-Germanic. His dating and geography for Germanic is conventional.

    I can see how you may have been misled by his wording in one place.

    Nope see previous posting. The spread of "Germanic in southern Scandinavia and presumably
    the northern German plain, including the northern part of the Netherlands." is in timing totally congruent with the development and expansion of the (late) Nordic Bronze Age.

    And regarding the Northeastern part of the Netherlands this is congruent with archeological findings:
    http://rjh.ub.rug.nl/Palaeohistoria/article/view/25026

    "These suggest some sort of extraordinary connection between Drouwen (Northeastern Netherlands) and the North European cultural area in the Bronze Age, especiaIly in the Late Bronze Age."
    Last edited by Finn; 10-13-2017 at 02:34 PM.
    "Finn, son of Folcwald,
    should honour the Danes.."

    Beowulf

  15. #369
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    The spread of "Germanic in southern Scandinavia and presumably the northern German plain, including the northern part of the Netherlands." is in timing totally congruent with the development and expansion of the Nordic Bronze Age.
    You are perfectly entitled to put forward whatever eccentric notions you like in your own name, but Prof. Schrijver might not be too happy with you putting his name on them. You have taken one sentence out of context. If you read the paragraph that he actually refers to in the one you keep quoting, it becomes clear that he is well within the consensus view of linguists on the origin and dating of Germanic. If you read the whole book it is even clearer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    You are perfectly entitled to put forward whatever eccentric notions you like in your own name, but Prof. Schrijver might not be too happy with you putting his name on them. You have taken one sentence out of context. If you read the paragraph that he actually refers to in the one you keep quoting, it becomes clear that he is well within the concensus view of linguists on the origin and dating of Germanic. If you read the whole book it is even clearer.
    Back to basics.

    Nordic Bronze Age time line:


    Quote Schrijver 1 (2014):
    The early break-up of Proto-Germanic into West and North- Germanic was probably engineered when speakers of a lost northern European language (or languages) with a peculiar vowel and consonant system came into contact with Germanic, to which they ultimately switched. A lost language with a sound system with very similar properties was probably involved in turning Finno-Saamic into Proto-Saami. The absorption of this group of languages accompanied the spread of Finno-Saamic in Finland and in central and northern Sweden and Norway, and the spread of Germanic in southern Scandinavia and presumably the northern German plain,including the northern part of the Netherlands( chapter V .4).


    Quote Schrijver 2 (2014):
    " Once Germanic had arisen in a northeastern European zone of contact between Indo-European and Balto-Finnic, probably in the course of the first millennium BC, it began to spread."

    makes Killian 1988:


    and Mallory1989:
    Last edited by Finn; 10-13-2017 at 04:39 PM.
    "Finn, son of Folcwald,
    should honour the Danes.."

    Beowulf

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