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Thread: Origins of Germanic

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexfritz View Post
    proto-germanic speakers and that collectively and that thus cant be the already splintered iron-working/iron-age jastorf zone but the collective bronze-age nordic circle pre iron age diffusion;
    Why do you see Jasorf as more splintered than the Nordic Bronze Age?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    Instead of the Goths leaving Scandinavia en masse for the Continent at a certain time, it seems more a question of some of them crossing from eastern Sweden from the Late Bronze Age onwards, but retaining some link to the Swedish homeland, to which they could return if conditions were right. Ptolemy places the Gutae (Gautae) in southern Scandia c. 150 AD, but also also mentions the Gythones living on the east bank of the Vistula. So in that era they were in both regions. Southern Sweden historically formed Gautland (Götland), the land of the Gautar in Old Norse, whose name is retained in the present region of Götaland, Sweden.

    Influences from eastern Sweden in Wielbark were once thought to reflect the arrival of the Goths in mainland Europe. In recent years archaeologists have pointed to the continuity of settlement between the previous Oksywie culture (2nd century BC+) and Wielbark culture (c. 30 to 400 AD). The change from cremation to inhumation, seen as the critical difference between the two, was gradual rather than sudden. The Goths around the mouth of the Vistula drifted up the river during the 2nd and 3rd centuries AD, or so it seems from the southern spread of Wielbark culture elements, and then appeared in history near the Black Sea. They are the Goths of history, and they spoke an East Germanic language.
    did the goths speak only Gutnish one should ask

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Gutnish

    and interesting site below
    http://ling.everywitchway.net/german...oths/lesson-01


    and , are the gutes ( goths ) and geats people different or from the same family
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotlander

    The other interesting fact of all of this is that scania ( south sweden ) has always been omitted as part of the goths ..............maybe its only part of the longobards legacy
    Last edited by vettor; 11-13-2017 at 05:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    Why do you see Jasorf as more splintered than the Nordic Bronze Age?
    because the nordic_circle(ba) was the cultural horizon out of which the iron age diffusion emerged (wessenstedt>jastorf) and it encompasses the area/the mediating position from which a collective proto-germanic could branch out of; jastorf is just one succession to the nordic bronze age thus it cant be the center of a common development for all germanic branches;

    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    I fear that a very large part of this book would be necessary to follow the linguistic reasoning.
    attested inscriptions will do;
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexfritz View Post
    because the nordic_circle(ba) was the cultural horizon out of which the iron age diffusion emerged .... and it encompasses the area/the mediating position from which a collective proto-germanic could branch out of; jastorf is just one succession to the nordic bronze age thus it cant be the center of a common development for all germanic branches;
    No. Jastorf was the Iron Age culture - it melds influences from the Nordic Bronze Age and La Tène culture. But the iron-working element did not come from the Nordic Bronze Age. It came from La Tène.

    Linguists specialising in Germanic are agreed the Jastorf culture in its earliest phase is the most probable homeland of Proto-Germanic, the immediate parent of the three main branches of the Germanic language family. If you want to argue against the linguists, I shall have to leave you to it. I am suffering at the moment from repetitive strain injury. So I'm trying to limit posts here.

    attested inscriptions will do
    You surely realise that there are no inscriptions in Pre-Proto-Germanic. The earliest Germanic runic inscriptions are c. AD 150 and are fairly close to Proto-Germanic, but Proto-Germanic is estimated to have developed a few centuries before the birth of Christ, but no earlier than about 500 BC. Again I'm following linguists. So the book by Ringe is your best bet if you want to understand the linguistic dating.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    No. Jastorf was the Iron Age culture - it melds influences from the Nordic Bronze Age and La Tène culture. But the iron-working element did not come from the Nordic Bronze Age. It came from La Tène.

    Linguists specialising in Germanic are agreed the Jastorf culture in its earliest phase is the most probable homeland of Proto-Germanic, the immediate parent of the three main branches of the Germanic language family. If you want to argue against the linguists, I shall have to leave you to it. I am suffering at the moment from repetitive strain injury. So I'm trying to limit posts here.



    You surely realise that there are no inscriptions in Pre-Proto-Germanic. The earliest Germanic runic inscriptions are c. AD 150 and are fairly close to Proto-Germanic, but Proto-Germanic is estimated to have developed a few centuries before the birth of Christ, but no earlier than about 500 BC. Again I'm following linguists. So the book by Ringe is your best bet if you want to understand the linguistic dating.
    actually the bronze>iron transition occurred in wessenstedt via hallstatt to jastorf and the runes from vimose and illerup are north/west germanic since it shares the common feature of loss final *z and not proto-germanic as also ancestral to east-germanic; correct there are no inscriptions for attesting dates;
    Last edited by alexfritz; 11-14-2017 at 01:30 AM.
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  9. #466
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexfritz View Post
    actually the bronze>iron transition occurred in wessenstedt via hallstatt to jastorf
    Yes I should have said Late Hallstatt and La Tène. The Wessenstedt Culture on the extreme southern fringe of the Nordic Bronze Age transitions into Jastorf, yes. But the fact remains that Proto-Germanic is calculated to date from no earlier than 500 BC, which is Jastorf not Wessenstedt. And the iron-working came from contact with the Celts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    Yes I should have said Late Hallstatt and La Tène. The Wessenstedt Culture on the extreme southern fringe of the Nordic Bronze Age transitions into Jastorf, yes. But the fact remains that Proto-Germanic is calculated to date from no earlier than 500 BC, which is Jastorf not Wessenstedt. And the iron-working came from contact with the Celts.
    with that being said, the iron innovation emerged pre LaTene i.e. late bronze urnfield[HaA/B] > early iron hallstatt HaC/D(p.VI) k.kristiansen 'new economic axis' p.213 / a.f.harding 'change to iron' p.240
    7Xj8HgA.png / TLfOKpR.png
    very sure it is somewhat of an archaeo-chronological tradition/(rule?) that iron innovations were adopted by bronze age societies in order for them to become iron societies themselves and it is indisputable that this innovation was adopted via the celtic speaking groups with the collective derived common/shared etymology stemming from the proto- dev stage and not pre-proto;

    one interesting modern question (aDNA based) is how far south the gens germani actually reached outside of the traditional nordic_circle in the light of Z280 halberstädter(urnfield-saalemündung) and U106 lichtensteiner(urnfield-unstrut) all encompassed later zones of iron jastorf;
    Last edited by alexfritz; 11-15-2017 at 03:12 AM.
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  11. #468
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexfritz View Post
    iron innovations emerged pre LaTene in late bronze urnfield[HaA/B] > early iron hallstatt HaC/D(p.VI) k.kristiansen 'new economic axis' p.213
    7Xj8HgA.png
    very sure it is somewhat of an archaeo-chronological tradition/(rule?) that iron innovations were adopted by bronze age societies in order for them to become iron societies themselves and it is indisputable that this innovation was adopted via the celtic speaking groups with the collective derived common/shared etymology stemming from the proto- dev stage and not pre-proto;

    one interesting modern question (aDNA based) is how far south the gens germani actually reached outside of the traditional nordic_circle in the light of Z280 halberstädter(urnfield-saalemündung) and U106 lichtensteiner(urnfield-unstrut) all encompassed later zones of iron jastorf;
    There is no R1b-U106 from the Urnfield period in Lichtenstein up to date.
    Last edited by Radboud; 11-14-2017 at 01:38 PM.

  12. #469
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radboud View Post
    There is no R1b-U106 from the Urnfield period in Lichtenstein up to date.
    That the Nordic Bronze age stretched into to North German Plain is clear and even had an outlier in in Drenthe (North Dutc) as stated and researched by the archeologist and Bronze Age expert J.J. Butler (RUG) is clear. The genetical consequent of that are quite unclear.

    The iron age the time of the German expansion is interesting to. AuDNA shows that Saxon (Chauci/Hugas) expansion had a tremendous impact on the North Dutch coast and direct inland. More than 60% of the North Dutch genes belongs to the Saxon fringe. And auDNA shows there is a relationship with Nordic genes. Was this the influx about 500 BC from Southern Scandinavia to Nordalbingia as a result of climate change as Jean stated!?

    On thing is clear often is said that Old English and Old Frisian show relationship, no wonder when they both are derived from the same Saxon stock....
    "Finn, son of Folcwald,
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    What I still can't place and still puzzles me is that my au DNA and that of my parents is related to the Saxon fringe....
    But there is in this respect a strong occurrence that I would aspect with the most Anglo Saxon parts of England, but that's not the case.....we are more related to Scotland in stead of East England. How come?

    Father

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    Finn

    Yorkshire is known as one of the most Germanic/Anglo Saxon parts of England, why is there a lower correlation with my obvious Saxon auDNA???
    Last edited by Finn; 11-14-2017 at 07:30 PM.
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