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Thread: Origins of Germanic

  1. #391
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    Quote Originally Posted by Camulogène Rix View Post
    Why not. But what Lothar Kilian wrote (in 'Zum Ursprung der Indogermanen', Bonn 1983) about the supposed cradle of the Indo-European people located in Ertebölle culture is fully outdated...
    That's true Camu. But there is a work of the excellent archeologist Jay Jordan Butler that is up to now without discussion and is very in depth in his archeological research. Judge for your self. This is what Alexfritz is posting:

    "i agree with post#370, and i think it is def safe to say that there was an expansion from the nordic-bronze age zone that reached its iron-age(jastorf/harpstedt) extends ~500bc; and the way i understand it is that it was a proto-germanic expansion (judging by lower-rhine -vv- as opposed to celtic double -s- in -issa-/-usso-); thus PPG might be too early as presence that far from the nordic-bronze age zone in pre periodIII"

    That's linguistic.

    Now the archeological work of James Butler, its about a finding from Drouwen.. Drouwen is in green area of the Hondsrug, Drenthe in the map of the genetic landscape of the Netherlands done by Pijlsteen.


    So a genetic presence (without excluding an Anglo Saxon invasion afterwards!!!).

    " The archaeological evidence tells us that types of Northern Period IV, Period IV or V, and Period V are involved, but that their deposition was very probably all in Period V. But are we to imagine that these deposits were all very close together in time - say, all in the same generation, at one extreme - or whether they were spread out over something like a century? Another uncertain point: does our cast of characters at Drouwen consist of actual Northerners, settlers from afar: did we have an influx of Two-eared Terrineans from the Elbe Mouth region, or Keyhole Ditchers from Westphalia, or such-like? Or do we have to do with local folk somehow acculturized to ‘Urnfield’ rituals, who have, thanks to some sort of special contact situation, been able to acquire an unusual share of North European metal prestige goods? Or are we dealing with an intrusive overlord (m/f) and his/her attendants, who have, by invitation or imposition, established a hegemony over the local population?
    There is little doubt that chiefdoms existed in the rich South Scandinavian-North German cultural area in the Late Bronze Age (cf. for example Levy, 1982). Whether this was true also of the poorer, fragmented areas west of the Weser is another question. Van der Waals (1987: pp. 13-16, 46) has lately asserted a presupposition that the north of the Netherlands remained in a tribal, pre-chiefdom state at least up to the Middle (pre-Roman) Iron Age, i.e. around 500 BC. Are, then, our chiefly Bronze Age figures at Drouwen chiefs without a chiefdom?"
    We do not believe that we can at present decide whether Late Bronze Age Urnfield Society in Drenthe was at the ‘tribal’ or the ‘chiefdom’ level of social organization, or at some intermediate level between these ideal types. There is, admittedly, little evidence for ‘chiefdom’ complexity in this area. But chiefs can and do exist at the tribal level, even if their status is less institutionalized than it would be in a chiefdom society. We can, therefore, have our chiefs at Drouwen in either case.
    Personally, we like to imagine a marriage to a local person of a chiefly figure from the Elbe area - perhaps from the Lüneburger Heide, or from Holstein, or from Mecklenburg - coming with rich exotic gifts, bringing along a subservient smith with loads of scrap metal, and other retainers. Drouwen might then have constituted a territorial power centre. Was it the chiefly capital of the Hondsrug, or of the whole of the north of the Netherlands, or the whole of the Hunze-Ems region?
    In the present state of knowledge, it would seem that the Emsland, the Münster basin, and the north of the Netherlands had a common culture in the Late Bronze Age. They had in common, at least, pottery types such as those of the Doppelkonus family (most recent maps Tackenberg, 1985: Karten 26-27), burial monuments such as the keyholeshaped ditches (latest map Wilhelmi, 1983: Abb. 13). In the same areas the ‘Hunze-Ems’ socketed axes circulated. If there was an ethnic and economic community between these areas, it is not entirely inconceivable that they might, for a shorter or longer time, have lived under a common political authority. And as Drouwen is now the only chiefly centre that we can identify, it could be that Drouwen served as the centre of authority for the entire region. This may be pure fantasy; but future research and discovery may add to or subtract from the picture we have suggested.
    It was, perhaps, also then a redistribution centre for scarce luxury imports from farther east. In this respect we can think of finds such as the Scandinavian spectacle brooch from the Bonnerveen, ge- meente Gasselte, only 6 km to the north of Drouwen (fig. 30), or the gold bracelets from Hijkersmilde and the bronze hoard from Hijken (including a socketed knife, bracelets related to those of the ‘Princess’, and a looped button), c. 25 km farther west (Butler & van der Waals, 1960; Butler, 1965: figs 9-10).
    Obviously, any number of scenarios different from this can be imagined to fit the same facts. What in any case appears certain is that Drouwen had some sort of special relationship with the North European area, seemingly persistent over a long period, but reaching a remarkable climax in the Late Bronze Age."


    Source

    Independent from each other images from linguistic-archeological and genetic knowledge.....overlap or all just coincidence without any linkage!?
    Last edited by Finn; Yesterday at 06:56 AM.
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  2. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Finn For This Useful Post:

     alexfritz (10-15-2017), Camulogène Rix (10-15-2017), kostoffj (Yesterday), spruithean (10-15-2017)

  3. #392
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    That hotspot is based only on samples from Hoogezand, of course it may be similar near it.

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  5. #393
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexfritz View Post
    that is exactly the point; the cimbri and teutones traversed the entire hercynian-forest(bohemia>rhine) and noricum from east to west until the trek ended up on the rhone and consisted of Germanorum et Gallorum gentes and this was obviously not unique in the iron age, as an earlier trek (melpum>rome) was of a similar Germanorum et Gallorum gentes (<gaesatae/pennineAlps); Boiohaemum/Bohemia(etym=BoiiHomeland) contains the proto-germanic *heimaz yet the boii fall by the archaeo context into proper LaTene(<BAlusatian-urnfield/HAL_36?) and i do think the boii derived from boiohaemum rather than establishing it(>livius); the fact the greeks called the "delphi raiders" galatae does not for sure indicate them to be celts since strabo also ascribes the germani as being galatae;
    The Boii are a gallic tribe that fought off the cimbri and teutonic.
    Invasion and migration mean different things

  6. #394
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    Thanks Pylsteen, I thought that it was Eelde (next to it). Not essential different indeed (but not the highest score like Hoogezand). Eelde is on the Hondsrug like Drouwen. I have corrected my post.

    Hoogezand-Sappemeer is a peat bog, my oldest ancestors from my fathers side belonged to the oldest initiators there. The initiators were mostly Frisian anabaptist. But is a different population than on the Hondsrug. (although with connections).
    Last edited by Finn; Yesterday at 06:58 AM.
    "Finn, son of Folcwald,
    should honour the Danes.."

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    No, I haven't read it. I find Blood of the Celts as a title a really misleading. For once it leads to rancid racism. Moving on, I respect your aim at finding truth in DNA, Linguistics and archaeology but let's face it, we just don't know how assertive or quoting authority we can project the upper hand, especially when you quote yourself. Just a word of advice, humility can travel far, plainly speaking , just it has to resonate, I just haven't felt your rhythm yet.

    t
    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    Isidro - have you read Blood of the Celts? The linguistic history of Iberia gets a lot of attention in that book, which it certainly deserves. The topic is complex - more so than I realised in the first edition of Ancestral Journeys (2013). So the second edition (2015) brought the subject in line with Blood of the Celts. So you have two books of mine to choose from if you want the arguments discussed at decent length with references supplied. There were also threads on the forum back in 2014/2015 which thrashed the topic out.

    I knew when I threw that latest map together that it would attract readers with more interest in other parts of Europe. I expected a flurry of interjections on other languages than Germanic. But my aim was to indicate how dramatically different the linguistic geography was in Bronze and Iron Age Europe than it is today.

    [Added] This map was created simply for this thread and not for publication.
    Last edited by Isidro; Yesterday at 11:14 PM.

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