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Thread: Origins of Germanic

  1. #341
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    My findings are not so clear as you probably believe Jean.

    Some statements with thanks to google translate:
    "There is no clear boundary between Germanic and Celtic areas. For archeologists, the difference between both cultures is especially gradual. However, the more you move north over the Rhine from the core areas of the La Tene culture, Celtic coins and glass bracelets are more scarce in archaeological finds. There we find more objects that detect the influence of the Jastorf culture considered Germanic.

    The current communis opinio says that in the present Netherlands north of the big rivers there are no Celtic place names and maybe about five to their south. Recent linguistic research assumes that the Celts might be more northern, but uncertain if it's true. Toorians writes that geographical and personal names are not always unambiguously Roman, Celtic or Germanic."

    So Rhine again as border....

    Picture of the toponyms:

    red is celtic, green Germanic, situation end of the iron age. The Celtic toponyms are to be found even much lower than the Rhine, more into Wallonia/Northern France.


    About the Frisian leaders with Celtic names:

    "You do not have to loose yourself in names, says Professor Doris Edel, Professor of Celtic Studies in Utrecht, Germanic leaders had Celtic names. It was a matter of fashion, she says. The Galatians (the Celts on the Black Sea) usually had Greek names. The famous Germanic seer Veleda, whom Tacitus speaks, has a Celtic name (compare Welsh gweled: 'see')."

    My conclusion: these kind of language things is very tricky business.

    I will research in my library at this evening, so may be surprise surprise, but a Celtic Roman temple in Groningen!???

    What we do now ( less tricky) is that in genetic terms there is a distance between above and beneath the Rhine. North Dutch is undeniable a Nordic outlier in the Netherlands. Geographically destinated by the North Sea and the Northern Plain! Both had it's influence! Ertebolle, Funnelbeaker, Corded Ware/Single Grave , Bell Beaker, Tumulus, Urnfield are all developments the North Dutch shared with NW Germany and Denmark. All pretty pre- and proto-German.

    As you can see in the admixtures I'am so much North Dutchman as Dane South Dutch doesn't show up in the admixtures even though the Danish border is further away than the South Dutch populations!

    Doesn't rule out that there was influence of at least the proto-Celts. And probably a significant cultural influence of the actual Celts.


    But this doesn't make the Dutch above the Rhine steady Celtic in the Bronze age! Let's say borderzone Pre-Germanic/Proto-Celtic A real Dutch solution: compromis.....ROFLOL
    Yes names can be tricky. Vannius of the 'Germanic' Quadi is attested as a name in Noricum several times, and the Norici are said to have been La Tene in culture, pre-Roman.

    Finn, are those toponyms in diagram dated to any particular period ?
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 10-12-2017 at 02:56 PM.

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  3. #342
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    Yes names can be tricky. Vannius of the 'Germanic' Quadi is attested as a name in Noricum several times, and the Norici are said to have been La Tene in culture, pre-Roman.

    Finn, are those toponyms in diagram dated to any particular period ?
    There was also the Romanized Germanic king Maroboduus of the Suebi/Marcomanni. His name is generally broken down into two Celtic components: māro = great (Welsh = mawr, Irish = mór), and bodwos = raven (Irish = badhbh).

    Definitely either some sort of fashion statement or evidence of Celtic-Germanic mixing and tribes of mixed Celtic-Germanic origins.
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  5. #343
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    My findings are not so clear as you probably believe Jean.
    I can't say that I expect crystal clarity in this matter. If it had been easy and straightforward, with lots of documentary evidence positively screaming that there were Celtic speakers in every inch of the territory now the Netherlands c. 100 BC, it wouldn't have taken this long for Dutch scholars to notice the possibility. But now the notion is out of the box, I doubt that it can be made to vanish once more.

    Fortunately, the issue is tangential to my forthcoming book, so I don't need to delve into it.
    Last edited by Jean M; 10-12-2017 at 05:34 PM.

  6. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    Yes names can be tricky. Vannius of the 'Germanic' Quadi is attested as a name in Noricum several times, and the Norici are said to have been La Tene in culture, pre-Roman.

    Finn, are those toponyms in diagram dated to any particular period ?
    Nori are bronze age illyrian tribe from Noricum

    when they became celtinized they where referred to as Norici

    they are then later called taurisci ( celtic name ) because the taurisci where in La tene and not in Halstatt....but historians used taurisci to reflect both La Tene and halstatt once they where fully celtic......there was no Norici in La Tene

    Quadi tribes where basically in modern czech lands

    Father's Mothers Ydna ......R-S22778 ........Merlengo Veneto
    Father's Mtdna .....T2b17.......1735 Porcellengo Veneto Italy
    Wife's Ydna ..........R-DF99
    Sons Mtdna .....K1a4 ...........1710 Carnic Alps

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  7. #345
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  9. #346
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    Germanic_proto.jpg




    If I understand it correctly, this author sees Proto Germanic as a fusion of IE Cordedware with nonIE Funnel Beaker in Jutland.

    If correct then this is complete by about 1500BCE (ie in LBA), so why is this approx date so different to the much later Iron Age Date that is generally accepted?

    Full article attached.
    Attached Files Attached Files

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  11. #347
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peccavi View Post
    Germanic_proto.jpg




    If I understand it correctly, this author sees Proto Germanic as a fusion of IE Cordedware with nonIE Funnel Beaker in Jutland.

    If correct then this is complete by about 1500BCE (ie in LBA), so why is this approx date so different to the much later Iron Age Date that is generally accepted?

    Full article attached.

    the date of ca. 500BC may be seen as the Proto-Germanic reconstructed, or the TMRCA of Germanic languages. The date in this article 1500 BC may then be seen as the "start" of Proto-Germanic. I think probably things as Grimm's law may have taken place in this 1000 year period.
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  13. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    But now the notion is out of the box, I doubt that it can be made to vanish once more.
    No problem with that Jean. As long if you don't see a Celt behind every tree

    Quote Originally Posted by Peccavi View Post
    Germanic_proto.jpg

    If I understand it correctly, this author sees Proto Germanic as a fusion of IE Cordedware with nonIE Funnel Beaker in Jutland.

    If correct then this is complete by about 1500BCE (ie in LBA), so why is this approx date so different to the much later Iron Age Date that is generally accepted?

    Full article attached.

    I will read it and what about the influence of the (proto) celtic in this story!
    Last edited by Finn; 10-12-2017 at 08:39 PM.
    "Finn, son of Folcwald,
    should honour the Danes.."

    Beowulf

  14. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    Yes names can be tricky. Vannius of the 'Germanic' Quadi is attested as a name in Noricum several times, and the Norici are said to have been La Tene in culture, pre-Roman.

    Finn, are those toponyms in diagram dated to any particular period ?
    No the article only mentioned end of the iron age, I will look further for the source!
    "Finn, son of Folcwald,
    should honour the Danes.."

    Beowulf

  15. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peccavi View Post
    If I understand it correctly, this author sees Proto Germanic as a fusion of IE Cordedware with nonIE Funnel Beaker in Jutland.

    If correct then this is complete by about 1500BCE (ie in LBA), so why is this approx date so different to the much later Iron Age Date that is generally accepted?
    No, Iversen and Kroonen are talking about a linguistic process during the long period of the development of Pre-Proto-Germanic. Their focus is the non-IE agricultural substrate in Germanic, which they see as probably from Funnel Beaker. (I initially thought the same, but went for Cucuteni-Tripolye in the end. It probably does not matter much.) This is one of the papers I cite in the forthcoming book.
    Last edited by Jean M; 10-12-2017 at 09:10 PM.

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