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Thread: Origins of Germanic

  1. #471
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    What I still can't place and still puzzles me is that my au DNA and that of my parents is related to the Saxon fringe....
    But there is in this respect a strong occurrence that I would aspect with the most Anglo Saxon parts of England, but that's not the case.....we are more related to Scotland in stead of East England. How come?

    Father

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    Finn

    Yorkshire is known as one of the most Germanic/Anglo Saxon parts of England, why is there a lower correlation with my obvious Saxon auDNA???
    Maybe because we don't know as much as we think we do.
    I caught part of a documentary on the Northumbria region the other evening I think the title was "Borderland". There was a brief reference to the Angles in Scotland. I don't know much about the region or how significant the presence was but I doubt that would account for it entirely.
    I don't think trips across the North Sea began with the Anglo Saxons. The South East coast isn't the only way to access Britain.

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  3. #472
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnHowellsTyrfro View Post
    Maybe because we don't know as much as we think we do.
    I caught part of a documentary on the Northumbria region the other evening I think the title was "Borderland". There was a brief reference to the Angles in Scotland. I don't know much about the region or how significant the presence was but I doubt that would account for it entirely.
    I don't think trips across the North Sea began with the Anglo Saxons. The South East coast isn't the only way to access Britain.
    Indeed and that makes it intriguing too John!!
    One thing looks more and more clear the same Germanic tribes that went to the Isles also went to the Northern Netherlands. But stil puzzling indeed. The Midlands is also slightly more connected with my family just like Scotland.....both are said are more Scandinavian in stead of Anglo-Saxon https://www.theguardian.com/science/...lysis-suggests
    "Finn, son of Folcwald,
    should honour the Danes.."

    Beowulf

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  5. #473
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnHowellsTyrfro View Post
    Maybe because we don't know as much as we think we do.
    I caught part of a documentary on the Northumbria region the other evening I think the title was "Borderland". There was a brief reference to the Angles in Scotland. I don't know much about the region or how significant the presence was but I doubt that would account for it entirely.
    I don't think trips across the North Sea began with the Anglo Saxons. The South East coast isn't the only way to access Britain.
    Catch!?

    The current expert of the Frisian archeology Johan Nicolay (2006) states that there were two migration movements to the Northern Netherlands (also related to England of course).
    1. The more Anglo-Saxon movement (about first half 5th century)
    2. The more west Scandinavian movement (medio 5th century and later on)

    Picture from his article (in Dutch....)


    A little bit unveiling?
    Last edited by Finn; Yesterday at 10:21 AM.
    "Finn, son of Folcwald,
    should honour the Danes.."

    Beowulf

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  7. #474
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Indeed and that makes it intriguing too John!!
    One thing looks more and more clear the same Germanic tribes that went to the Isles also went to the Northern Netherlands. But stil puzzling indeed. The Midlands is also slightly more connected with my family just like Scotland.....both are said are more Scandinavian in stead of Anglo-Saxon https://www.theguardian.com/science/...lysis-suggests
    I'm no expert (just trying to learn) and I'm happy to be corrected if wrong but my understanding is that the Midland Mercian region and Northumbria was more associated with the Angles than the Saxons. So how did the migration work - did the early settlers stay in the East and the later arrivals pass through them or did the early settlers push Westwards to the border with Wales to try and grab more land? - I don't know.
    Obviously we know there was Norse movement from Scandinavia particularly Norway around the top of Scotland down into the Western Isles and down into the Irish Sea (Ireland and Wales). As far as I know there wasn't any significant Viking settlement on the Wales/England border. Viking settlement in Wales appears to be from the Irish Sea.
    I don't see any reason why these routes couldn't have been taken in earlier periods in history, perhaps not on the same scale but gradually over a long period. I note from LivingDNA results that quite a few people (including myself) seem to get Orkney and SW/NW Scotland percentages with no known ancestry in that region.
    Last edited by JohnHowellsTyrfro; Yesterday at 06:40 AM. Reason: afterthought

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  9. #475
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnHowellsTyrfro View Post
    I caught part of a documentary on the Northumbria region the other evening I think the title was "Borderland". There was a brief reference to the Angles in Scotland. I don't know much about the region or how significant the presence was....
    The Angles settled in what is now Lowland Scotland. Their Kingdom of Bernicia there was eventually amalgamated with the Anglian kingdom of Deira, with its capital at York, to become the Kingdom of Northumbria. Northumbria and Cumbria were annexed to Scotland by David I, but lost under his grandson and successor Malcolm IV in 1157. Fighting over the frontier continued for centuries until the present border was settled, which included in Scotland the English-speaking (or rather Scots-speaking) Lowland once (roughly) Bernicia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geogra...he_Middle_Ages

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  11. #476
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    The Angles settled in what is now Lowland Scotland. Their Kingdom of Bernicia there was eventually amalgamated with the Anglian kingdom of Deira, with its capital at York, to become the Kingdom of Northumbria. Northumbria and Cumbria were annexed to Scotland by David I, but lost under his grandson and successor Malcolm IV in 1157. Fighting over the frontier continued for centuries until the present border was settled, which included in Scotland the English-speaking (or rather Scots-speaking) Lowland once (roughly) Bernicia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geogra...he_Middle_Ages
    Do you have a view on the spread of the Jutes and Nores on the Isles?
    "Finn, son of Folcwald,
    should honour the Danes.."

    Beowulf

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Do you have a view on the spread of the Jutes and Nores on the Isles?
    The Jutes settled in East Kent and the Isle of Wight, but a king of Wessex is said to have wiped out the Jutes in the Isle of Wight and replaced them with his own people.

    The Norse (Norwegian) Vikings settled most strongly in Orkney and Shetland. Danish Vikings settled in Yorkshire and other parts of England. Both are marked in yellow on the map below.

    Map39.jpg

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  14. #478
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    The Angles settled in what is now Lowland Scotland. Their Kingdom of Bernicia there was eventually amalgamated with the Anglian kingdom of Deira, with its capital at York, to become the Kingdom of Northumbria. Northumbria and Cumbria were annexed to Scotland by David I, but lost under his grandson and successor Malcolm IV in 1157. Fighting over the frontier continued for centuries until the present border was settled, which included in Scotland the English-speaking (or rather Scots-speaking) Lowland once (roughly) Bernicia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geogra...he_Middle_Ages
    Thank you for that Jean. It was a good documentary, (from around the Roman period) what I saw of it. Channel Four I think. There should be a second part coming up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    The Angles settled in what is now Lowland Scotland. Their Kingdom of Bernicia there was eventually amalgamated with the Anglian kingdom of Deira, with its capital at York, to become the Kingdom of Northumbria. Northumbria and Cumbria were annexed to Scotland by David I, but lost under his grandson and successor Malcolm IV in 1157. Fighting over the frontier continued for centuries until the present border was settled, which included in Scotland the English-speaking (or rather Scots-speaking) Lowland once (roughly) Bernicia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geogra...he_Middle_Ages
    Is there a reason why you place Bernicia as Lowland Scotland?The centre was Bamburgh in Northumbria and my understanding was that Bernician influence expanded North from there to what is now SE Scotland.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rncambron View Post
    Is there a reason why you place Bernicia as Lowland Scotland?The centre was Bamburgh in Northumbria and my understanding was that Bernician influence expanded North from there to what is now SE Scotland.
    You are right. The problem here for discussion of Scotland is that the present border between England and Scotland did not exist at the time. So I thought the best I could do in discussing Angles in Lowland Scotland was to refer to Bernicia, which of course is anachronistic. It might have been better for me not to mention it at all.

    Englandc.620.png

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