Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 54

Thread: M343* has an elevated presence in northern Iran among several Iranian speaking groups

  1. #21
    Senior Member alan's Avatar
    Posts
    2,808
    Sex
    Omitted
    Y-DNA
    L21
    mtDNA
    H

    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    That is a straw man because I never said that the Iranian speakers entering Iran were composed of nothing but R1a males. Obviously that is wrong. I disagreed that they brought this R1b to Iran given that the Indo-Aryan speakers, Dardic-Nuristani speakers, Central Asian and Afghan Iranian speakers as well as Southern Iranians lack this R1b at any important frequency. They absorbed plenty of other stuff which is likely to be J2a, L, R2a and G but not R1b. Those are the five haplogroups (R1a, R2a, G2a, J2a and L) shared by almost all Indo-Iranian speakers so I exclude pretty much anything else as being brought by Indo-Iranians.
    I do agree too with the general principle that the pattern of R1b in Asia among various groups is telling us something about its former position or chronology of its spread. I have never given up the possibility that R1b was simply an early particularly western steppe group that (like so many steppe groups) moved or was pushed out south and west. L23's distribution can be made sense of it it was pushed out in two directions from the Ukraine steppes area (south through the Caucasus to Iran and SW Asia and west into the Balkans and later Anatolia/Armenia. It cannot be ruled out and the modern population largely only occupied the old Ukraine steppes lands of the Tatar Khanate 3 centuries ago.

  2. #22
    Senior Member
    Posts
    292
    Sex
    Location
    Warsaw, Poland
    Y-DNA
    R1a-L1280
    mtDNA
    H2a2(b1)

    Poland EuropeanUnion
    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    The Maykop people had been bilingual NE Caucasian and IE speakers given their position
    This seems very unlikely considering that we don't see any significant number of borrowings from NEC to PIE or vice versa.
    Your anticlockwise movement of R1b/IE people is indeed something that I would consider very likely, only that I would rather assume that it started east (or maybe even south-east) of the Caspian Sea.
    Last edited by Michał; 06-12-2013 at 12:33 PM.

  3. #23
    Senior Member alan's Avatar
    Posts
    2,808
    Sex
    Omitted
    Y-DNA
    L21
    mtDNA
    H

    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    This seems very unlikely considering that we don't see any significant number of borrowings from NEC to PIE or vice versa.
    Your anticlockwise movement of R1b/IE people is indeed something that I would consider very likely, only that I would rather assume that it started east (or maybe even south-east) of the Caspian Sea.


    An explanation might be that the contact point with the steppe was strongest in the NW Caucasus around around the Kuban/sea of Azov area where navigation using a network of rivers into the steppes commenced. The Maykop chief is somewhere near the Kuban River which is the only navigable river in the north Caucasus and which leads to Azov.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Maykop_culture-en.svg

    From Azov there is incredibly possibilities for navigating through the entire western steppes.

    Contacts from the NW Caucasus to and from the south-east and the Caspian on the other hand would have involved land journeys (which may have been only feasible once the wheel appeared). The Maykop culture seems to have created links from Iran to the Ukraine steppes in particular, using the SE-NW axis that is the shape of the culture and is essentially also echoing the line of the Great Caucasus barrier. That it did not simply spread north into the open steppes of south Russia from there but had an axis spreading essentially from Iran to the Ukraine must have been a choice or neccessity of some sort. Perhaps they preferred the safety of using rivers in the steppe. Or perhaps (as the focus of their steppes trading in metals suggests) the main role was to trade with the Ukraine steppe groups. They were more advanced and had also recently lost their Balko-Carpathian metal supply in the centuries around 4000BC. Maykop appeared at the right time and was located on exactly the quickest root for an Iranian and Caucasus metal supply to reach them. Interestingly in terms of their apparent lesser impact on the north Caspian/Ural area, that area quickly established its own non-Caucasian metal supply in Kargaly. Although Kargaly too was probably commenced using Maykop knowledge and at least a small human element it does seem that the local steppic Yamnaya culture arose partly on locals controlling the distribution of the Kargaly copper source. That pure copper source seems to have supplied the eastern part of the western steppes but not the Maykop-supplied area in the south Ukraine steppes which were a very short step away from the Maykop zone (either sail Azov or a very short crossing to Crimea). It all makes sense when you look at the geography and chronology.

    In fact a combination of wheels and boats would really have been required to fully exploit the trading and contact activities shown in terms of influence in and out of the Maykop area in the archaeological record. There

  4. #24
    Senior Member
    Posts
    292
    Sex
    Location
    Warsaw, Poland
    Y-DNA
    R1a-L1280
    mtDNA
    H2a2(b1)

    Poland EuropeanUnion
    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    An explanation might be that [...]
    Sorry, but nothing that you wrote seems to explain the absence of linguistic borrowings in case the Maykop culture was indeed bilingual (IE and NWC).

  5. #25
    Senior Member alan's Avatar
    Posts
    2,808
    Sex
    Omitted
    Y-DNA
    L21
    mtDNA
    H

    Interestingly as well Azov as formerly being incredibly good fishing and used for maritime trading the Kuban river that flows into it through the Maykop area is apparently famous for its vines. This page has a discussion of PIE and wine

    http://anthrocivitas.net/forum/showthread.php?t=10689

  6. #26
    Senior Member alan's Avatar
    Posts
    2,808
    Sex
    Omitted
    Y-DNA
    L21
    mtDNA
    H

    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    Sorry, but nothing that you wrote seems to explain the absence of linguistic borrowings in case the Maykop culture was indeed bilingual (IE and NWC).
    I wont claim to be an expert on it although Wiki states:

    It has been conjectured[6][7] that the North-West Caucasian languages may be genetically related to the Indo-European family, at a time depth of perhaps 12,000 years before the present. This hypothesised proto-language is called Proto-Pontic, but is not widely accepted.

    There does at least appear to have been extensive contact between the two proto-languages, and the resemblances may be due to this influence.


    It is interesting if the two proto-languages were in 'extensive contact'. I am not claiming to have any idea about who spoke what in the period. All I know is that Maykop was in a major contact zone with Iran on the south-east and the Ukraine steppes in the north-west. There were also probably lesser contacts north to the Ural-Volga area and to the south to the east of Anatolia/north Mesopotamia. Maykop appears to be all about trading (especially the SE to NW axis through the Russian Caucsasus/Kuban area). It is clear they had to have been able to converse in some way with a number of potential languages - the north Caucasus, the western steppes, NE Iran and possible northern Mesopotamia. That could have comprised Caucasian, IE and a couple of other language groups.

    I would not rule out the Maykop chieftons speaking PIE. There was no barrier to the steppe (in contrast with to the south, east and west) and there were steppe groups within Maykop territory at the same period. The linguist Whittaker has suggested there is an IE Anatolian-like linguistic influence on Sumerian (he calls it Euphratic) and can even be seen in their writing system. He seems to have backtracked a little from substrate to adstrate. However, the period in question of these borrowings would nicely overlap with the suggested connection of Maykop with late Uruk people. Add that to the fact that Assyrians (who claim descent from Sumerians) share L23* with the Caucasus, north Iran (as well as eastern Europe) and there is a possibility that L23* trickled into Mesopotamia from the north. It is a lot less likely that R1b moved from Mesopotamia to the north because R1b has variance dates and phylogeny that suggests it was not in an advanced farming area and was doing very little before 4 or 5 thousand BC.

  7. #27
    Senior Member alan's Avatar
    Posts
    2,808
    Sex
    Omitted
    Y-DNA
    L21
    mtDNA
    H

    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    This seems very unlikely considering that we don't see any significant number of borrowings from NEC to PIE or vice versa.
    Your anticlockwise movement of R1b/IE people is indeed something that I would consider very likely, only that I would rather assume that it started east (or maybe even south-east) of the Caspian Sea.
    There is certainly an arguement that R1b was north and/or east of the early farming zone. Its structure suggests it was very peripheral and in a non-developed farming area until perhaps 4000BC or a little before. So essentially areas which had any sort of flourising farming in 8000, 7000, even 6000BC are pretty well out of the question. That is possibly the problem with looking to northern Iran as it did have farming very early. These kind of considerations might imply that R1b was actually native to the north Caucasus-steppe interface but found itself in a superb position on Azov as a middleman in the Maykop trail between Iran and the Azov (which would surely have seen non-R1b geneflow too and two way flow too), particularly in terms of the metal trade. It is possible that the R1b element in the north Caucasus is the native steppe element such as Novotitorovka culture

    Wiki says:
    Novotitorovka culture, 3300–2700 BC, a Bronze Age archaeological culture of the North Caucasus immediately to the north of and largely overlapping portions of the Maykop culture facing the Sea of Azov, running from the Kerch Strait eastwards, almost to the Caspian, roughly coterminous with the modern Krasnodar Krai region of Russia.

    It is distinguished by its burials, particularly by the presence of wagons in them and its own distinct pottery, as well as a richer collection of metal objects than those found in adjacent cultures, as is to be expected considering its relationship to the Maykop culture.

    It is grouped with the larger Indo-European Yamna culture complex, and in common with it, the economy was semi-nomadic pastoralism mixed with some agriculture.




    Another thing that cannot be emphasised enough is the historically recent displacement of the steppe population in southern Ukraine (Crimea Khanate) as well as a whole mess of movement in the millenia between 4000BC and then. It is posssible (I would say very probable indeed) that L23 had a strong presence in the north shore of the Black Sea (Crimea etc) and the 'gap' in the circumpontic distribution in the Ukraine is an illusion. If that was the case it is not impossible L23 spilled in two directions from the south-Ukraine/steep part of the Russian Caucasus both south and west into Europe. That cannot be ruled out. Only ancient DNA of the various culture of the area c. 4000-3000BC will prove anything.
    Last edited by alan; 06-12-2013 at 04:00 PM.

  8. #28
    Senior Member MJost's Avatar
    Posts
    602
    Sex
    Location
    Central United States
    Ethnicity
    Celtic, Goidelic
    Y-DNA
    R-L21>DF13>FGC5496
    mtDNA
    H11a2a

    UnitedStatesofAmerica Netherlands IsleofMan Scotland Poland
    I did some addition runs using Maliclavelli's set of Italian M343 Hts he posted over on FW, and and present the data similar to the previous post #5. Not sure what I am seeing

    Here is the results. MJost

    R1b* M343(xM269) Balanovsky 2011
    YrsPerGen* Count IntraClade Coalescence (n-1) Age Mean Generations StdDevInGen YBP +OR-YBP Max-YBP Mean VAR SD
    30 N=5 Clade A: R1b* East 118.8 62.6 3,563.2 1,878.0 5,441.1 3.600 1.897
    30 N=8 Clade B: N* & O3 237.1 88.5 7,114.0 2,653.5 9,767.5 7.188 2.681
    Diff = 118.4 3,550.8 4,326.4
    YrsPerGen* Count Intraclade Founder's Modal Age Modal Gen Age StdDevInGen YBP +OR-YBP Max-YBP Modal FVAR Modal FSD
    30 N=5 Clade A: R1b* East 184.8 78.1 5,542.7 2,342.2 7,885.0 5.600 2.366
    30 N=8 Clade B: N* & O3 371.2 110.7 11,134.9 3,319.8 14,454.7 11.250 3.354
    Diff = 186.4 5,592.2 6,569.8
    YrsPerGen* TRUE MRCA InterClade GAB Generations StdDevInGen YBP +OR-YBP Max-YBP PooledVar Pooled SD
    30 Pooled SD Clades A & B InterClade Coalescence (n-1) Age: N* & O3 for R1b* East & N* & O3 318.3 102.5 9,548.2 3,074.2 12,622.4 9.647 3.106
    30 Pooled SD Clades A & B Interclade Modal Founder's: N* & O3 for R1b* East & N* & O3 248.7 47.1 7,460.8 1,412.8 8,873.6 3.712 1.927
    R1b* M343(xM269) Italy
    YrsPerGen* Count IntraClade Coalescence (n-1) Age Mean Generations StdDevInGen YBP +OR-YBP Max-YBP Mean VAR SD
    30 N=4 Clade A: R1b* Italy 223.2 85.8 6,694.7 2,574.1 9,268.9 6.764 2.601
    30 N=8 Clade B: N* & O3 237.1 88.5 7,114.0 2,653.5 9,767.5 7.188 2.681
    Diff = 14.0 419.3 498.7
    YrsPerGen* Count Intraclade Founder's Modal Age Modal Gen Age StdDevInGen YBP +OR-YBP Max-YBP Modal FVAR Modal FSD
    30 N=4 Clade A: R1b* Italy 390.4 113.5 11,712.3 3,404.8 15,117.1 11.833 3.440
    30 N=8 Clade B: N* & O3 371.2 110.7 11,134.9 3,319.8 14,454.7 11.250 3.354
    Diff = 19.2 577.4 662.3
    YrsPerGen* TRUE MRCA InterClade GAB Generations StdDevInGen YBP +OR-YBP Max-YBP PooledVar Pooled SD
    30 Pooled SD Clades A & B InterClade Coalescence (n-1) Age: N* & O3 for R1b* Italy & N* & O3 293.2 98.4 8,796.9 2,950.7 11,747.6 8.888 2.981
    30 Pooled SD Clades A & B Interclade Modal Founder's: N* & O3 for R1b* Italy & N* & O3 322.9 66.3 9,686.9 1,988.9 11,675.9 2.046 1.430
    R1b* M343(xM269) Balanovsky 2011 & Italy
    YrsPerGen* Count IntraClade Coalescence (n-1) Age Mean Generations StdDevInGen YBP +OR-YBP Max-YBP Mean VAR SD
    30 N=9 Clade A: R1b* East & Italy 304.4 100.2 9,132.3 3,006.5 12,138.8 9.227 3.038
    30 N=8 Clade B: N* & O3 237.1 88.5 7,114.0 2,653.5 9,767.5 7.188 2.681
    Diff = 67.3 2,018.3 2,371.2
    YrsPerGen* Count Intraclade Founder's Modal Age Modal Gen Age StdDevInGen YBP +OR-YBP Max-YBP Modal FVAR Modal FSD
    30 N=9 Clade A: R1b* East & Italy 412.9 116.7 12,385.9 3,501.3 15,887.2 12.514 3.537
    30 N=8 Clade B: N* & O3 371.2 110.7 11,134.9 3,319.8 14,454.7 11.250 3.354
    Diff = 41.7 1,251.0 1,432.5
    YrsPerGen* TRUE MRCA InterClade GAB Generations StdDevInGen YBP +OR-YBP Max-YBP PooledVar Pooled SD
    30 Pooled SD Clades A & B InterClade Coalescence (n-1) Age: N* & O3 for R1b* East & Italy & N* & O3 347.3 107.0 10,418.9 3,211.3 13,630.2 10.527 3.244
    30 Pooled SD Clades A & B Interclade Modal Founder's: N* & O3 for R1b* East & Italy & N* & O3 332.2 65.1 9,966.5 1,953.8 11,920.3 2.444 1.563
    f148326, FGC-0FW1R, YSeq-ID6. R-DF13>FGC5496>*5521>*5539>*5538>*5508>*5524
     
    Watterson USA GD1/67 & GD3/111, *5508+. GD1ís fatherís sister-23andme pred. 3rd Cous w/ 0.91% DNA shared-3 seg. Largest on Chr1 w/non-Euro admix affirms my NPE paternal Watterson line via aDNA & YDNA. A 2nd pred. 4th cous has same DKA b. 1840's Georgia and MDKA d 1703 IOM. 3rd Cousin FtDNA FF appears to be from the same Watterson line via Ala. *5538+ b. IOM w/ GD6/67 & GD8/111 -SGD3. FGC5539+ a Scot-Ross GD13/111 -SGD8

  9. #29
    I thank you for your work I shall study when I have time after work, school etc. You say that you aren't sure about what you are seeing... probably that without taking in consideration my three golden principles (mutations happened around the modal, there is a convergence to the modal as time passes, sometime a mutation goes for the tangent) every calculation doesn't carry us to the truth, that will be that of the aDNA, and as aDNA of hg. G and E in Europe has disproved every previous calculation (I said that the time should have been multiplied for 2.5) probably next aDNA will disprove this.
    How is it possible that the interclade from N and O3 is the same of the R-M343 if not that these lines are only some lines survived by chance and many mutations are hidden? The markers taken in consideration haven't always a very low mutation rate and Boattini et al. took in consideration for their calculation only the 8 slowest mutating ones.
    I said that these 5 Italian R-M343 demonstrated their very ancient presence in Italy by comparing their haplotypes with those present in the R1b1 FTDNA project: if you look at the Jewish ones, they presuppose an unique recent ancestor, whereas the Italian ones are one different from the others and diffused in all the Italian territory. So far we had only Demao e Toniolo (I put on ySearch from SMGF) but with data still uncomplete, plus another partial from the Marche. But you should calculate the intraclade between Mangino (name withhold but the last but one in the "ht 35 FTDNA Project") and the other R-M269: he is M269* but his markers values are close to the other R1b1-s.
    Last edited by Rathna; 06-13-2013 at 03:16 AM.

  10. #30
    Senior Member MJost's Avatar
    Posts
    602
    Sex
    Location
    Central United States
    Ethnicity
    Celtic, Goidelic
    Y-DNA
    R-L21>DF13>FGC5496
    mtDNA
    H11a2a

    UnitedStatesofAmerica Netherlands IsleofMan Scotland Poland
    I would agree that the Italian's are old based on their haplotypes as compared to the Ossets and Circassians and the Modal variance appears to be higher for the Italians. But looking at the Caucasus or Italy InterClade Coalescence and Interclade Modal Founder's Mean, Modal Founder and the Pooled Variances results, I would have to say that the Balanovsky 2011 study HTs are overall older and the Italian guys have less variance. It is consistently higher for the Caucasian's overall.

    But then again we need more HTs even though I used Bird's stable STRs only for older clades - using only 390 391 439 458 437 448 H4 456 635

    MJost
    f148326, FGC-0FW1R, YSeq-ID6. R-DF13>FGC5496>*5521>*5539>*5538>*5508>*5524
     
    Watterson USA GD1/67 & GD3/111, *5508+. GD1ís fatherís sister-23andme pred. 3rd Cous w/ 0.91% DNA shared-3 seg. Largest on Chr1 w/non-Euro admix affirms my NPE paternal Watterson line via aDNA & YDNA. A 2nd pred. 4th cous has same DKA b. 1840's Georgia and MDKA d 1703 IOM. 3rd Cousin FtDNA FF appears to be from the same Watterson line via Ala. *5538+ b. IOM w/ GD6/67 & GD8/111 -SGD3. FGC5539+ a Scot-Ross GD13/111 -SGD8

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •