PDA

View Full Version : Scarce examples within Z93



AJL
08-07-2012, 10:15 PM
Hello all,

Most Z93 so far are also L342 and many of these are also L657, especially around the Persian Gulf.

However, there are also some Z93(xZ94,xL342) and Z93,Z94(xL342). (There are also predicted to be some Z96.) The distribution is very broad and so far there is no particular STR motif. If you have tested positive for Z93, please join the R1a1a and Subclades Project

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1a/default.aspx

since we would really like to get a better handle on all the subclades beyond M198.

Palisto
08-14-2012, 02:57 AM
I made a network analysis of all L342 individuals (with STR67 data) and a bigger network analysis of all R1a1a individuals (with STR111 data).
http://kurdishdna.blogspot.com/2012/08/l342-comparison-str67.html
http://kurdishdna.blogspot.com/2012/08/r1a1a-comparison-str111.html

The latter analysis shows how diverse various subclades of R1a1a are, including Z93+.

32

AJL
08-14-2012, 04:52 AM
Thanks, and yes re the diversity. There do appear to be a substantial number of potential subclades that simply don't have their own SNP for now but which will eventually gain them. I had thought Family Tree Dna would be offering full Y sequencing with the Roche 454 Titanium by now, but alas, no.

parasar
08-16-2012, 03:02 PM
Thanks, and yes re the diversity. There do appear to be a substantial number of potential subclades that simply don't have their own SNP for now but which will eventually gain them ...

A potential one found in an L342+ WTY - L1282.

Palisto
08-19-2012, 06:10 PM
I made a network analysis of all L342 individuals (with STR67 data) and a bigger network analysis of all R1a1a individuals (with STR111 data).
http://kurdishdna.blogspot.com/2012/08/l342-comparison-str67.html
http://kurdishdna.blogspot.com/2012/08/r1a1a-comparison-str111.html

The latter analysis shows how diverse various subclades of R1a1a are, including Z93+.

32

I made a new tree for all R1a1a individuals (with STR111 data).
http://kurdishdna.blogspot.com/2012/08/r1a1a-comparison-str111-part-ii_18.html
Humata helped me with the tools to generate the tree.

111

Since this is a rooted tree, haplotype clusters that are very close to the Modal haplotype tend to show less clustering in this type of analysis, in this case it is the R1a1a Scandinavian cluster 7 (Z284+).
I used the color coding of the FTDNA R1a1a and subclades project (http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l625/ft-d/R1a-cl-1.jpg).


A potential one found in an L342+ WTY - L1282.
I think it is N77532 Sundardas Tulsyan, India.
He is in the tree as # "N77532-2C*". Based on the presented tree and the previously presented network analysis #184336 , SAUD ABDUL AZIZ, Qatar would be a good candidate for L1282, too (1844336-2C* in the tree).

Palisto
05-25-2013, 07:50 AM
I made a new tree for all R1a1a individuals (with STR111 data). For branching I used SNP data as well.
http://kurdishdna.blogspot.com/2013/05/r1a-tree.html

newtoboard
06-16-2013, 06:22 PM
Hey Palisto

What do you think the origin of that of Z283+ in that Kurd is?

Regards

Palisto
06-18-2013, 04:27 AM
Hey Palisto

What do you think the origin of that of Z283+ in that Kurd is?

Regards

The question should be "what does the Kurdish Z283+ tell you about the origin of Z283+"

His STR67 values are pretty different from other Z282+* individuals.
His DYS390 is lower than all other Z282+* individuals, he has a value of 23 (others have 24-26).
His DYS389i is lower than all other Z282+* individuals, he has a value of 12 (others have 13-14). A value of 12 is very rare.

He is Z283+, Z282+ but negative for all other SNPs tested (L175-, L176.1-, L260-, M157.1-, M334-, M417+, M434-, M458-, M56-, M64.2-, P98-, PK5-, Z280-, Z282+, Z283+, Z284-, Z93-).
This is R1a1a1b1a* based on the ISOGG 2013 tree, the root branch for most "European" R1a1a subclades (Z284, Z280, M458).
http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

R1a1a1b1a* has been repeatedly found in the Middle East (UAE, Kuwait, Kurdish, Armenians), they are all pretty different from each other. Middle Eastern R1a1a1b1a* is very diverse. This is why I think it is not right to call Z282 or Z283 "European". The root is not European only.

AJL
06-18-2013, 04:57 AM
Another interesting find -- to the Armenian Z93* men, we now have one case to add of an Armenian Z94+ L342+ L657- Z2124-.

As to the specific Z283 question, I am not sure about this but I suspect there is lower variety in it than in Eastern Europe. My colleague Michał would be much better to address this than I would.

newtoboard
06-18-2013, 03:59 PM
The question should be "what does the Kurdish Z283+ tell you about the origin of Z283+"

His STR67 values are pretty different from other Z282+* individuals.
His DYS390 is lower than all other Z282+* individuals, he has a value of 23 (others have 24-26).
His DYS389i is lower than all other Z282+* individuals, he has a value of 12 (others have 13-14). A value of 12 is very rare.

He is Z283+, Z282+ but negative for all other SNPs tested (L175-, L176.1-, L260-, M157.1-, M334-, M417+, M434-, M458-, M56-, M64.2-, P98-, PK5-, Z280-, Z282+, Z283+, Z284-, Z93-).
This is R1a1a1b1a* based on the ISOGG 2013 tree, the root branch for most "European" R1a1a subclades (Z284, Z280, M458).
http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

R1a1a1b1a* has been repeatedly found in the Middle East (UAE, Kuwait, Kurdish, Armenians), they are all pretty different from each other. Middle Eastern R1a1a1b1a* is very diverse. This is why I think it is not right to call Z282 or Z283 "European". The root is not European only.

Good info. I was trying to ask if you see that as lineage brought from Europe or part of West Asian diversity? I think you answered my question.

I believe he is a Zazaki speaker. I wonder if that gives us more info on its origins.

Palisto
06-18-2013, 04:55 PM
Another interesting find -- to the Armenian Z93* men, we now have one case to add of an Armenian Z94+ L342+ L657- Z2124-.

Thanks for sharing. By now, we have evidence that the root of Z93 and the root of Z282 can be found in East Anatolia; more than 90% of all R1a individuals belong to one of these two major branches of R1a. This fits to my assumption that R1a (like almost all West-Eurasian haplogroups) started its success story from the Middle East.



As to the specific Z283 question, I am not sure about this but I suspect there is lower variety in it than in Eastern Europe. My colleague Michał would be much better to address this than I would.

There might be some latest SNP data I am not aware of but based on the STR diversity I don't see that Eastern Europe has a higher variety in Z282* individuals.
http://kurdishdna.blogspot.com/2013/05/r1a-tree.html
475
476


Good info. I was trying to ask if you see that as lineage brought from Europe or part of West Asian diversity? I think you answered my question.
There is no evidence that his lineage was brought from Europe to Anatolia.



I believe he is a Zazaki speaker. I wonder if that gives us more info on its origins.

He is 1/8 Kurdish (+7/8 Turkish), only his paternal great-grandfather is Kurdish and I think his Kurdish ancestry was Kurmanji, not Zaza.

newtoboard
06-18-2013, 05:29 PM
Any Z93* among the Kurds? I do think R1a originated somewhere between Eastern Anatolia and the Caspian shores of Iran and Azerbaijan.

Palisto
06-18-2013, 06:33 PM
Any Z93* among the Kurds? I do think R1a originated somewhere between Eastern Anatolia and the Caspian shores of Iran and Azerbaijan.
This is what I collected so far:

http://kurdishdna.blogspot.com/2013/04/kurdish-y-dna-part-ix.html

Haplogroup R1a
1x R1a (Kurdish village Dogukoy*/Central Anatolia in Gokcumen et al., 2011)
11x R1a a.k.a. hg3(Eu19) (Iraqi Kurds in Nebel et al., 2001)
7x R1a1a-M17 (Zaza from Turkey in Nasidze et al., 2005)
11x R1a1a-M17 (Kurmanji from Turkey in Nasidze et al., 2005)
2x R1a1a-M17 (Kurds from Turkmenistan in Nasidze et al., 2005; originally used in Wells et al., 2001)
12x R1a1a-M17 (Iranian Kurds in Grugni et al., 2012)
11x R1a1a-M17 (Iraqi Kurds in Stenersen et al., 2004; based on Athey's Haplogroup predictor)
1x R1a1a (Z93+, L342+, L657-, Z2122-)(Sorani from Sulaymaniyah/Iraq)
1x R1a1a (Z283+, Z282+, Z284-, M458-, Z280-, subclade 3 only his paternal great-grandfather is Kurdish from Turkey)
1x R1a1a (Alevi Zaza from Dersim/Turkey)
1x R1a1a (Alevi Kurmanji from Dersim/Turkey)
1x R1a1a (Kurd from Turkey)
1x R1a1a (Sorani from Sulaymaniyah/Iraq)

There is one with Z93+, L342+, L657-, Z2122-; no further SNP testing has been made.

Michał
06-19-2013, 09:35 PM
There might be some latest SNP data I am not aware of but based on the STR diversity I don't see that Eastern Europe has a higher variety in Z282* individuals.

AFAIK, there is no new SNP data that would make the classification of different Z282* members more secure. However, your tree seems to predict that the Asian members of paragroup Z282* belong to different (separate) potential sub-branches of Z282, each of them including both Asians and Europeans. By contrast, our co-admin responsible for the Z283/2*section (Mariusz Wilkoszewski) is more inclined to believe that all known Asian members of Z282* belong to a specific West Asian sub-branch of Z282, although this group seems to include at least one Z282* member from Europe (Ukraine). This West Asian cluster 3.B3 is predicted to be very old, so its very existence is very intriguing. However, I haven't seen any calculations suggesting that the age of 3.B3 is older than the age of all European Z282* clusters taken together.

Most importantly, we shouldn't separate the Z282* question from the existence of the three huge SNP-defined subclades of Z282 (M458, Z280 and Z284) that are practically absent in Asia while contributing to more than 90% of R1a in Europe, so there seems to be no doubt that Z282 (or Z283, if including some rare Z283+ Z282- members) is not only much more numerous in Europe but also its diversity in Europe by far supersedes the diversity of Z283/Z282 in Asia.

Palisto
08-05-2013, 09:59 AM
AFAIK, there is no new SNP data that would make the classification of different Z282* members more secure. However, your tree seems to predict that the Asian members of paragroup Z282* belong to different (separate) potential sub-branches of Z282, each of them including both Asians and Europeans. By contrast, our co-admin responsible for the Z283/2*section (Mariusz Wilkoszewski) is more inclined to believe that all known Asian members of Z282* belong to a specific West Asian sub-branch of Z282, although this group seems to include at least one Z282* member from Europe (Ukraine). This West Asian cluster 3.B3 is predicted to be very old, so its very existence is very intriguing. However, I haven't seen any calculations suggesting that the age of 3.B3 is older than the age of all European Z282* clusters taken together.

Most importantly, we shouldn't separate the Z282* question from the existence of the three huge SNP-defined subclades of Z282 (M458, Z280 and Z284) that are practically absent in Asia while contributing to more than 90% of R1a in Europe, so there seems to be no doubt that Z282 (or Z283, if including some rare Z283+ Z282- members) is not only much more numerous in Europe but also its diversity in Europe by far supersedes the diversity of Z283/Z282 in Asia.


a) The Z282+ West Asian 3.B clusters include only one member from Ukraine (187138; Alojzy Jaklinski, b. 18 April 1917,Galicia,Ukraine) and 8 members from West Asia. It is clearly a West Asian cluster.
Additionally, the Ukrainian 187138 is pretty close to 248943 (Wojciech Węglowski; b. 1738 d. 1818) from Poland, and 248943 is in the Z282+ Central-Western European cluster B2A.

b) I think we should not get fooled by the tremendous European data set and should always make sure that we separate the Z282* question from the existence of the three SNP-defined subclades of Z282 (M458, Z280 and Z284) because M458, Z280 and Z284 are downstream of Z282 and, hence, they cannot say much about the origin of the upstream SNP Z282.
Essentially, M458, Z280 and Z284 members are descendents of only three Z282 men 6000 years ago (or less). Due to the many European members of the 3 SNPs M458, Z280 and Z284 these subclades appear to be huge and diverse but they are "just" well-described with a lot of newly discovered SNPs.

c) I have not calculated it but the West Asian cluster 3.B3* cluster alone has more STR67 variability than all European Z282* clusters (3.B1+3.B2) taken together.

Michał
08-05-2013, 02:25 PM
a) The Z282+ West Asian 3.B clusters include only one member from Ukraine (187138; Alojzy Jaklinski, b. 18 April 1917,Galicia,Ukraine) and 8 members from West Asia. It is clearly a West Asian cluster.

I hope you meant 3.B3 and not 3.B, and if so, I must absolutely agree with you. Actually, I don’t know anybody who would claim that this cluster isn’t West Asian.




Additionally, the Ukrainian 187138 is pretty close to 248943 (Wojciech Węglowski; b. 1738 d. 1818) from Poland, and 248943 is in the Z282+ Central-Western European cluster B2A.

Are you suggesting that Jaklinski is a member of the Western-Central European cluster 3.B2 (to which Węglowski seems to belong) or rather that Węglowski is a member of the West Asian cluster 3.B3? I wouldn’t consider any such prediction as well supported.

Jaklinski, the only European (Ukrainian) member of 3.B3, shows indeed a relatively low GD to Węglowski from 3.B2 who, BTW, shows relatively low GD to all members of Z282*. However, I hope you have also noticed that Jaklinski shows even closer GD to another member of 3.B3 (182305), while Węglowski shows lower GD to some members of 3.B2 (235499 and 192682). Most importantly, Węglowski shows the presence of a characteristic STR-based innovation (DYS464a=11) shared by nearly all members of 3.B2, whereas Jaklinski lacks this characteristic result, while showing instead another relatively rare innovation DYS640=12 that is shared by all known members of the West Asian cluster 3.B3.

Of course, our classification would be much more secure if both these 3. B members upgraded their STR results to 111 markers. In such case, I would expect that Jaklinski will show DYS445=12 and DYS504=15, while Węglowski should show DYS445<12 and DYS504=14 if our predictions are correct.



b) I think we should not get fooled by the tremendous European data set and should always make sure that we separate the Z282* question from the existence of the three SNP-defined subclades of Z282 (M458, Z280 and Z284) because M458, Z280 and Z284 are downstream of Z282 and, hence, they cannot say much about the origin of the upstream SNP Z282.
I must strongly disagree with your approach. You need to keep in mind that the Z282* members are not closer to the “root” of the Z282 branch than any other members of Z282 (including people from clades Z284, Z280 and M458). The only difference between Z282* and some already known subclades of Z282 is that the mutations defining those potential subclades encompassing Z282* members are not known yet. Of course, we also don’t know whether all members of Z282* belong to a single subclade of Z282 or whether clusters 3.B1 3.B2 and 3.B3 represent some independent subclades (showing different relationship to the already known subclades of Z282), but this alone doesn’t make the only hypothetical West Asian subclade of Z282 (as represented by 3.B3) any more important than the remaining three, four or five potential subclades of Z282 (as represented by Z284, Z280, M458, 3.B1 and 3.B2, all showing European origin).




Essentially, M458, Z280 and Z284 members are descendents of only three Z282 men 6000 years ago (or less).
This is correct. However, those three people still constitute a larger group than the hypothetical single ancestor of 3.B3. Importantly, we don’t know whether 3.B3 constitutes one of the two hypothetical major sub-branches of Z282 (the other encompassing Z284, Z280, M458 and all European subclusters of Z282*), which would indeed suggest that the West Asian component of Z282 is almost equivalent to the European one. What we know right now is that we have at least five confirmed or potential European subclades of Z282 while only one hypothetical West Asian subclade within this large branch.




Due to the many European members of the 3 SNPs M458, Z280 and Z284 these subclades appear to be huge and diverse but they are "just" well-described with a lot of newly discovered SNPs.

Are you suggesting that the only potential West Asian subclade of Z282 (3.B3) will turn up to include more members than clades M458, Z280 and Z284 taken together? Do you have any data (or calculations) supporting such claim?




c) I have not calculated it but the West Asian cluster 3.B3* cluster alone has more STR67 variability than all European Z282* clusters (3.B1+3.B2) taken together.

Please note that the genetic distance between particular members of 3.B3 never exceeds 24 (at the Y67 level), while most members of the remaining group (8 out of 12) show GD>24 to at least some of the non-Asian members of Z282*, and in many such cases the maximal GD value reaches 28 or 29. This clearly suggests that 3.B(x3.B3) is significantly older than 3.B3.

parasar
08-05-2013, 02:47 PM
I would also add that there is just no Z282, Z280, Z283, Z284, M458 etc. to be found in India. If these 6000+ybp lines were west or central asian we could expect at least a trace amount in India (say like R1b-M73). Therefore, I think potentially only Z93 is Asian (assuming the English Z93+Z94- are not relict, but recent migrants to the Isles).

newtoboard
08-07-2013, 02:25 PM
I would also add that there is just no Z282, Z280, Z283, Z284, M458 etc. to be found in India. If these 6000+ybp lines were west or central asian we could expect at least a trace amount in India (say like R1b-M73). Therefore, I think potentially only Z93 is Asian (assuming the English Z93+Z94- are not relict, but recent migrants to the Isles).

There isn't really any M73 in India.