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Morci
02-03-2016, 04:51 AM
I was reading a blog that I recently discovered and the author had an entry about the old Y-DNA data that is out there for Siwa Berbers. I already knew that they were peculiar for their high frequency of R1b, but I never really questioned the rest of the data.

According to this (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/42082352/Berber.pdf) study, the Siwi sample (n=93) was 28% B2a1a and 26.9% R-V88. We all know the only other place in Africa where R-V88 has been found at such high frequencies is around the Chadic-speaking zone, that is Chad, Cameroon, Niger, Nigeria, etc. I'm not too keen on downstream mutations so please correct me if I'm off, but B2a1a also appears to have a significant presence around the same region, around northern and southern Cameroon. The sample from Siwa carried E-V38 at 6.5%.

So my question is, does this say anything about the movement of the male ancestors of the people of Siwa and some of the people of the Sahel/West Africa(mostly Chadic speakers)? I haven't seen much autosomal work here. The paper confused me because it says Siwa Berbers have negligible SSA ancestry on one hand, and then as high as 51% on another. Then there is no telling how much is East African versus West African-related. Also, is it possible that the West African-related ancestry in Northwest Africans (and maybe all Berbers) is as old as their language shift?

Odyss
04-13-2016, 12:29 PM
Those Siwa had surprisingly very low EM81 and their yDNA is mostly RV88 and B2 , their mtDNa show links with Upper Egypt (Nubian). My guess is that they descend from a para-Chadic population that undergone a Berberization process but it is equally possible they descend from the C-Group of Nubia who were hypothesized to have spoken a Berber language. This hypothesis stem from a number of words in Nobiin language that seem to have Berber roots, the most obvious being -aman (water) which is a very pan-Berber word stemming from a frozen plurial -(a)ma(-an).

Ignis90
04-13-2016, 02:54 PM
Little is known about them indeed, and sometimes even less on purpose :eyebrows: (censorship about the historically open homosexuality). What is sure is Siwa berberophones have completely different y-chromosome dna and mtdna frequencies and also a different autosomal profile than Berbers/Maghrebis. As for their "SSA" ancestry, I don't know but it is very likely heterogenous considering the wide variation of "phenotypes", some Siwis being predominantly if not mostly African.


In Siwa, the Bedouin arabs are probably much more similar to Berbers/Maghrebis ironically, which shouldn't be too surprising since Libyan arabic is spoken there.

grouza31
04-13-2016, 03:38 PM
I was reading a blog that I recently discovered and the author had an entry about the old Y-DNA data that is out there for Siwa Berbers. I already knew that they were peculiar for their high frequency of R1b, but I never really questioned the rest of the data.

According to this (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/42082352/Berber.pdf) study, the Siwi sample (n=93) was 28% B2a1a and 26.9% R-V88. We all know the only other place in Africa where R-V88 has been found at such high frequencies is around the Chadic-speaking zone, that is Chad, Cameroon, Niger, Nigeria, etc. I'm not too keen on downstream mutations so please correct me if I'm off, but B2a1a also appears to have a significant presence around the same region, around northern and southern Cameroon. The sample from Siwa carried E-V38 at 6.5%.

So my question is, does this say anything about the movement of the male ancestors of the people of Siwa and some of the people of the Sahel/West Africa(mostly Chadic speakers)? I haven't seen much autosomal work here. The paper confused me because it says Siwa Berbers have negligible SSA ancestry on one hand, and then as high as 51% on another. Then there is no telling how much is East African versus West African-related. Also, is it possible that the West African-related ancestry in Northwest Africans (and maybe all Berbers) is as old as their language shift?

You can read this excerpt from the book written by captain Claperton, Major Denham and doctor Oudney, entitled "Narrative of travels and discoveries in Northern and central africa in year 1822, 1823 and 1824 " they talk about Siwa arabs they encountered in central Africa more precisely in Borno (present NIGERIA). " There are lot of R6V88 people who are origin from Borno.
Here is what they wrote "The Shouaas Arabs are a very extraordinary race, and have scarcely any resemblance to the Arabs of the North : they have fine open countenances, with aquiline noses and large eyes; their complexion is a light copper color : they possess great cunning with their courage, and resemble in appearance some of our best-favoured gypsies in England, particulary the women, and their Arabic is nearly pure Egyptian."
8826

Agamemnon
04-14-2016, 12:18 AM
We'd need to know about the V88 branches they carry to say more, though it's certainly likely that they'll provide a hint to V88's origins in Africa.

Heber
06-01-2016, 07:58 PM
If found this blog while researching R1b and Bell Beaker,

"The top North Africa areas with R1b are Tuaregs from Niger (33%) and Siwa berbers from Egypt (29%). The first ones, are the dead-end of the R1b-V88 going south. The second ones are the ones that stood behind and stick around the Siwa oasis (big archeological site and home of clearly outcast people of ancient Egypt for millennia). Siwa oasis means the protectors of the sun god AMUN... go figure why the boy king R1b was called Tutankh-AMUN.
Anyway the Assyrians went very far to “meet” these people there in the Oasis and even Alexander the great made a perilous 6 day journey through the desert to meet this outcast individuals."

http://blogs.sapo.pt/cloud/file/eb6b52b82097d41dfa0e5797a2fa7945/olympusmons/2016/From%20Shulaveri%20to%20Bell%20beaker.pdf

Another paper from 2012 from Dr Anatole Klyosov discusses the R1b North African migration route.

Arbins, Bearers of Haplogroup R1b, from Central Asia to Europe, 16,000 to 1500 Years before Present

http://www.scirp.org/journal/PaperInformation.aspx?paperID=19567

Jean M
06-01-2016, 09:17 PM
So my question is, does this say anything about the movement of the male ancestors of the people of Siwa and some of the people of the Sahel/West Africa(mostly Chadic speakers)?

This question was discussed in a paper by Cruciani et al 2010. I cover it on http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/mediterraneans.shtml

9578
Click to enlarge.


It seems that these early farmers spread one branch of the Afro-Asiatic language family which includes Ancient Egyptian, the Berber languages of North Africa and the Chadic languages of West Central Africa, while the Semitic branch remained in the Levant and Arabia. We can picture farmers or pastoralists fleeing the arid Levant and crossing to North Africa. It seems that they initially avoided the swampy Nile Delta, spreading instead along the coast. The climate crisis that had driven them out of the Levant also interrupted the Saharan humid phase with a dry spell lasting centuries. Gobero in Niger was abandoned between 6200 and 5200 BC. The people who arrived in 5200 BC were of a lightly-built Mediterranean type, combining hunting, fishing and herding. These new arrivals were taking advantage of the return of chains of lakes across the Sahara, before it gradually turned back to the desert we see today. There is a strong correlation between the Chadic languages and haplogroup R1b1c (V88). Its distribution suggests that it migrated south across the Sahara to Lake Chad at this time, leaving a pocket of V88 in what is now the Siwa oasis near the western border of Egypt. This is consistent with Christopher Ehret's deduction from linguistics that Proto-Chadic emerged about 5,000 BC among a people who had migrated to Lake Chad from the Sahara.

For references see original.

Agamemnon
06-02-2016, 01:14 AM
IMO V88 is strictly associated with the spread of nomadic pastoralism in North Africa (notably in the Sahel), this marker arrived in the Nile Valley during one of the latest, nearly final, stages of late PAA, its arrival probably correlates with the emergence of the earliest Chadic and Libyco-Berber communities (which does not mean that Chadic and Berber share a closer relationship within the AA family, they clearly don't). It isn't as common among AA speakers as the different branches of E-M35.1 are, nor even as J1 is quite frankly, coupled with the rather "late" TMRCA estimates I think we can rule out its presence during the earlier stages of PAA. The fact that it came, in all likeliness, from the Middle East does not provide support for a West Asian urheimat, just stating the obvious here.

Megalophias
06-02-2016, 04:01 AM
IMO V88 is strictly associated with the spread of nomadic pastoralism in North Africa (notably in the Sahel), this marker arrived in the Nile Valley during one of the latest, nearly final, stages of late PAA, its arrival probably correlates with the emergence of the earliest Chadic and Libyco-Berber communities (which does not mean that Chadic and Berber share a closer relationship within the AA family, they clearly don't). It isn't as common among AA speakers as the different branches of E-M35.1 are, nor even as J1 is quite frankly, coupled with the rather "late" TMRCA estimates I think we can rule out its presence during the earlier stages of PAA. The fact that it came, in all likeliness, from the Middle East does not provide support for a West Asian urheimat, just stating the obvious here.
Yeah, V88 seems to be non-existent in the Horn. Plaster's study of 5756 Ethiopians turned up all of one P(xR1a) - and that's most likely M269.

Jean M
06-02-2016, 10:18 AM
The fact that it came, in all likeliness, from the Middle East does not provide support for a West Asian urheimat, just stating the obvious here.

As you know, I postulate a series of migrations which could explain the pattern of both AA and Y-DNA E. I suggest that Y-DNA E reflects a back-migration into Africa from an Out-of-Africa route across the southern coast of Arabia. Then we could see Y-DNA E carriers taking either PAA or a predecessor language into the southern Levant after the LGM, once the desert had receded enough to allow passage. Thus it would not have taken part in the very earliest stages of the Neolithic in the hilly flanks of the Fertile Crescent, but moved north gradually to join the farmers. Once having adopted pastoralism, some AA speakers could have moved south again into Africa to avoid the climate change that dried the Levant c. 6400 cal BC.


which does not mean that Chadic and Berber share a closer relationship within the AA family, they clearly don't

Some argue that they do. I followed that in AJ. Should I change that?

Agamemnon
06-02-2016, 06:24 PM
As you know, I postulate a series of migrations which could explain the pattern of both AA and Y-DNA E. I suggest that Y-DNA E reflects a back-migration into Africa from an Out-of-Africa route across the southern coast of Arabia. Then we could see Y-DNA E carriers taking either PAA or a predecessor language into the southern Levant after the LGM, once the desert had receded enough to allow passage. Thus it would not have taken part in the very earliest stages of the Neolithic in the hilly flanks of the Fertile Crescent, but moved north gradually to join the farmers. Once having adopted pastoralism, some AA speakers could have moved south again into Africa to avoid the climate change that dried the Levant c. 6400 cal BC.

I think the biggest problem with your scenario is that the agricultural lexicon fails to yield roots at pre-proto stage for most branches (including Semitic), this suggests not only that the PAAs were foragers and grain collectors but also that their descendants took up agriculture relatively late, probably until the disintegration of the Late PAA dialect bundle. In turn, if I'm reading this right, another problem I can see is the presence of certain morphological links between several branches of AA (4 out of 6 to be precise) and Proto-Bantu, all of this needs to be accounted for if we are to support a West Asian homeland. While I'd place the PAA homeland on the African shores of the Red Sea extending all the way to the Nile Valley around Wadi Halfa which would've acted as a corridor through which the earliest PAA communities filtered, a fairly decent case (take note, I did not say "good", just "decent") could be made for a West Asian urheimat especially if we place the PAA homeland in the Mushabian horizon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushabian_culture), since that's the kind of material culture you'd expect to find.



Some argue that they do. I followed that in AJ. Should I change that?

Militarev supports a "Chado-Berber" node IIRC, he's obviously wrong though, just like all the "Egyptian-Semitic" nodes you see in most phylogenies (an illusion produced by the wealth of data on Ancient Egyptian and Akkadian), it's quite clear that Libyco-Berber and Semitic share the closest relationship, closely followed by Cushitic, all three form a common Cushitic-Semitic-Berber node as they share innovative features, mainly as far as verbal morphology is of concern. Omotic was the first branch to split off from PAA, it literally is the most basal branch of AA, then the aforementioned Cushitic-Semitic-Berber node (which I'd refer to as Early/Middle PAA) broke free, finally the emergence of Chadic and Egyptian (Late PAA, there's a good chance these two branches are related) completed the disintegration of PAA. In this model, Chadic and Egyptian are the last branches to split from the Afroasiatic language bundle, Egyptian being the latest branch to emerge. The earliest Libyco-Berber communities (pre-PLB/pre-Proto-Libyco-Berber) probably spread out westwards from the Nile Valley roughly 5,000 to 4,000 yBP, that is to say after pre-Proto-Chadic made its way westwards circa 7,000 yBP (it isn't exactly hard to picture a few V88 individuals staying put in the Nile Valley and expanding ~2,000 years later with pre-PLB ). So yeah, you should change that :)

Jean M
06-02-2016, 07:13 PM
I think the biggest problem with your scenario is that the agricultural lexicon fails to yield roots at pre-proto stage for most branches (including Semitic), this suggests not only that the PAAs were foragers and grain collectors but also that their descendants took up agriculture relatively late,

How is that a problem? It fits my scenario. The language that moved out of Africa into the Levant would not have been agricultural. We know that the earliest stages of agriculture are found where the Taurus and Zagros ranges meet, and that it moved later into the Levant. So, as I said, the incomers would take up agriculture relatively late. However some of their descendants would have embraced it, or elements of it, in time to return with it to North Africa when that seemed like a good move. I'm not backing a home for the language family among people who had been in the Levant since the Palaeolithic, but what do I know? This is not my area of expertise. It is yours. :)

Jean M
06-02-2016, 07:25 PM
Militarev supports a "Chado-Berber" node IIRC, he's obviously wrong though, just like all the "Egyptian-Semitic" nodes you see in most phylogenies (an illusion produced by the wealth of data on Ancient Egyptian and Akkadian), it's quite clear that Libyco-Berber and Semitic share the closest relationship, closely followed by Cushitic, all three form a common Cushitic-Semitic-Berber node as they share innovative features, mainly as far as verbal morphology is of concern. Omotic was the first branch to split off from PAA, it literally is the most basal branch of AA, then the aforementioned Cushitic-Semitic-Berber node (which I'd refer to as Early/Middle PAA) broke free, finally the emergence of Chadic and Egyptian (Late PAA, there's a good chance these two branches are related) completed the disintegration of PAA. In this model, Chadic and Egyptian are the last branches to split from the Afroasiatic language bundle, Egyptian being the latest branch to emerge. The earliest Libyco-Berber communities (pre-PLB/pre-Proto-Libyco-Berber) probably spread out westwards from the Nile Valley roughly 5,000 to 4,000 yBP, that is to say after pre-Proto-Chadic made its way westwards circa 7,000 yBP (it isn't exactly hard to picture a few V88 individuals staying put in the Nile Valley and expanding ~2,000 years later with pre-PLB ). So yeah, you should change that :)

Extremely helpful. Thanks.