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MitchellSince1893
01-05-2016, 10:01 PM
Since early November 2015, I've been working on a "little" project of collecting data from publicly available FTDNA Y-DNA projects for England.

My starting point was the British Isles DNA Project by County Project which had ~630 confirmed SNPs. https://www.familytreedna.com/public/BritishIsles?iframe=yresults

I started searching through the various FTDNA Y-dna haplogroup projects and then searched for samples from each county in England. I first searched for the county and then for the towns and villages in said county. I ended up with 1929 confirmed SNP tested samples.

I then spent a couple of days performing quality control by going through and eliminating multiple entries for the same sample, and multiple entries for the same/similar surnames in the same county and ended up with 1830 samples.

An interesting note about this data is the timeframe. The median year of birth for the paternal ancestors listed in the projects is 1705 . As a majority of the FTDNA samples are from North America, this data may give us a glimpse of the genetic make up of England circa 1700.

Keep in mind that the data in the FTDNA projects is self-reported ancestry and is subject to human error. That is, there may be mistakes in an ancestor’s identity and/or place of birth.

As to the accuracy of the geographic data in the FTDNA projects, there is a way to cross check it to see if it’s in the ball park. The chart below has the estimated population in 1700 for each English County. It's listed in rank order with the most populous county at the top. On the right is the number of samples I collected for each county.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/18/ad/12/18ad1207bbd40a28c5dc430fdb850aaf.png

As you can see, there is a good overall correlation between the two. That is, most of the FTDNA samples come from the most populous counties in 1700. Of the 37 counties, 32 are ranked within 20% (within 8 ranks) of the corresponding population rank. Cambridge & Huntingdon, Surrey, Shropshire, Worcester being under represented in the FTDNA data; with Warwickshire being over represented.

Here is the overall breakdown for the Y-DNA haplogroups.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/aa/ed/e2/aaede28b745c1f129f2c354e9878362b.png

Note that there are over 200 generic R1b and P312 samples. The majority of P312 will most likely turn out to be DF27 as most of these samples are negative for both U152 and L21.

Maps to follow.

MitchellSince1893
01-05-2016, 10:14 PM
I spent some time trying out various ways to organize the county data. More geographic areas would show more detail, but would be more likely to be skewed because of small sample sizes. While larger geographic areas with more samples would show less detail. I finally decided on a minimum of 60 samples per geographic area with a total of 20 areas for England.

This map is a summary of the U106, R1a, I, I1, I2. Possibly Anglo Saxon and Scandinavian dominated haplogroups. I guess one might call it the "Germanic" haplogroups.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/2e/62/2b/2e622be862d0f178400d91d9ad5dcca6.png

This one is a summary of the P312 haplogroups: L21, U152, DF27, and remaining P312 haplogroups
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/47/37/eb/4737eb510f3065c97987fde27c861ce8.png

MitchellSince1893
01-05-2016, 10:17 PM
U106, I1, I2, R1a

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/b4/73/c0/b473c059a7f151d041da466626729166.png

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/05/61/a7/0561a7a716c1f5f210c5704f74a1cacb.png

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/2c/a5/62/2ca5624c386710760ecddeb4e5245f08.png

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/ed/cb/db/edcbdbe46a5e35d001ba1e8d5fd47495.png

MitchellSince1893
01-05-2016, 10:20 PM
P312 Haplogroups

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/ae/90/c2/ae90c22682d9f41ad8c2ad3299e68f9d.png

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/e7/67/b2/e767b2360cdb604493ba3f96fbf4afa4.png

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/27/64/29/276429d1201a10b7d87ab553420f8c6f.png

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/25/6a/0b/256a0b4be016f028c9b8dce8ca721666.png

MitchellSince1893
01-05-2016, 10:25 PM
Remaining Haplogroups with at least 1 region over 2%

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/46/e8/a5/46e8a5e8c591a05cd67871357c60c81d.png

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/a0/ff/80/a0ff80222407ecb6413d92c8a10d910d.png

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/13/3f/fb/133ffb5645da69382c08c1ea0c913ff2.png

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/20/fc/af/20fcaf4afb984fec7abf1eb4e535f2bc.png

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/69/3f/b6/693fb6125e19c79d68cabe1ef5084938.png

MitchellSince1893
01-05-2016, 11:16 PM
Here is a breakdown per region which was used to make the above maps

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/d1/09/43/d109434a9e66aad55a8b10c4677dbba3.png

Also higher resolution pix of maps located here https://www.pinterest.com/afblue010104/ftdna-england-ydna-research-project/

MitchellSince1893
01-06-2016, 01:52 PM
Remaining Haplogroups with at least 1 region over 2%

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/46/e8/a5/46e8a5e8c591a05cd67871357c60c81d.png

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/a0/ff/80/a0ff80222407ecb6413d92c8a10d910d.png

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/13/3f/fb/133ffb5645da69382c08c1ea0c913ff2.png

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/20/fc/af/20fcaf4afb984fec7abf1eb4e535f2bc.png

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/69/3f/b6/693fb6125e19c79d68cabe1ef5084938.png

Forgot this 1 for R-CTS4528.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/b1/11/00/b11100cab5d5daa11710ddce6ddbe4a3.png

ADW_1981
01-06-2016, 01:58 PM
Not doubting your research, but the levels of non-R1b groups seem considerably higher than published studies. I'm wondering the margin of error due to duplicate kits of the same lineage (ie family members) and incorrect self-reported COA.

MitchellSince1893
01-06-2016, 02:13 PM
Not doubting your research, but the levels of non-R1b groups seem considerably higher than published studies. I'm wondering the margin of error due to duplicate kits of the same lineage (ie family members) and incorrect self-reported COA.

It's not due to duplicate kits of the same lineage in the same county. I eliminated 100 samples so that I had none with the same or very similar surnames per county. However, the same surname could be in a neighboring county, but an over representation of a surname in neighboring counties would apply to all haplogroups.

Maybe Non R1b groups immigrated to North America in disproportionate numbers? If so, I'm not sure why this would happen.

Another possibility is non R1b FTDNA members are disproportionately participating in FTDNA projects?

Overall R1b comes out to 56.8% of the total.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/98/ba/ac/98baac6e22c62efe864eff541dd58c56.png

EDIT: I took a quick look at the overall R1b numbers and at least in Cornwall they appear to be in line with other studies. I will investigate further.

For example Balaresque et al. (2009) had Cornwall at 78.1%. I got 78.33%. They had 64 samples I had 60.

Balaresque et al. (2009) had Leicester at 62.4% R1b. I got 54.5% for Leicester but I only had 22 samples. They had 43 samples. Leicester was too small to count by itself so it's been combined in a region with Derbyshire and Northampton.

EDIT 2
I haven't been able to find the total numbers for the Balaresque et al. (2009) study yet. I believe this map might be from Balaresque et al. (2009)...not sure though. If so then yes the FTDNA numbers for R1b are lower in most regions compared to this study.
http://45.media.tumblr.com/dc53e838143c0e314d6a1ba57378fb7e/tumblr_nd8nqgoWCH1taoygto1_400.gif


EDIT 3: Myers and Busby combined got 64.4% for R1b (U106, L21, U152, P312 other) for England. 327 out of 508 samples. So again the FTDNA R1b numbers are lower, by 7.6% in this case.
Source https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=zimpEGGHFtrk.kVNIcV7mwmCA&hl=en_US

Williamson
01-06-2016, 06:00 PM
Maybe Non R1b groups immigrated to North America in disproportionate numbers? If so, I'm not sure why this would happen.

Another possibility is non R1b projects are disproportionately participating in FTDNA projects?

Could it be that men with non-R1b predicted haplogroups are more likely to confirm those predictions via SNP testing? You might be able to test that by checking if counties with a higher proportion of non-R1b men are over-represented compared to those with a lower proportion of non-R1b.

MitchellSince1893
01-06-2016, 06:58 PM
Could it be that men with non-R1b predicted haplogroups are more likely to confirm those predictions via SNP testing? You might be able to test that by checking if counties with a higher proportion of non-R1b men are over-represented compared to those with a lower proportion of non-R1b.

May be, but since I didn't use or keep data for "predicted haplogroups" i.e. all 1830 samples used were confirmed with SNP testing; I don't have a way of comparing predicted vs confirmed.

I'm not sure I exactly follow your last sentence, but I could go back and look at the British Isles DNA Project by County data (about 1/3rd of my total numbers).

For example of the 21 total samples (predicted and confirmed) for Leicester, 12 are non R1b or 54.5%.

6 of the 12 non R1b are predicted and 6 are confirmed via testing. Of the 9 R1b samples 7 are predicted and two confirmed.

So if I understand you correctly then in this small example 50% of the total non R1b have tested and only 22% of R1b have.

Williamson
01-06-2016, 07:22 PM
You might be able to test that by checking if counties with a higher proportion of non-R1b men are over-represented compared to those with a lower proportion of non-R1b.


I'm not sure I follow your last sentence as far as how to do that.

I was thinking you could use the population and FTDNA testing numbers you provided in your first post on this thread.

There are probably better ways to do this, but you could perhaps take the top 5 counties with the highest proportion of non-R1b men. For those 5 counties you divide your number of FTDNA tested men by the total population of those counties. That gives you some sort of testing rate. You repeat this process for the 5 counties with the highest proportion of R1b men, and then compare the two rates. I'm not sure if the results would be statistically significant, but you could see if there is a higher rate for non-R1b counties, than for R1b dominated counties.

There could be various reasons for a discrepancy. Perhaps the I, J, G, ... haplogroup project admins encourage SNP testing more than the R1b admins, etc.

Williamson
01-06-2016, 07:26 PM
For example of the 21 total samples (predicted and confirmed) for Leicester, 12 are non R1b or 54.5%.

6 of the 12 non R1b are predicted and 6 are confirmed via testing. Of the 9 R1b samples 7 are predicted and two confirmed.

So if I understand you correctly then in this small example 50% of the total non R1b have tested and only 22% of R1b have.

Yes, that would be an even better way of doing it, although a bit more work maybe.

Heber
01-06-2016, 07:44 PM
Here is some further Regional analysis, mainly L21

Isles
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/isles-dna/

Ulster
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/irish-dna-ulster/

Leinster
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/irish-dna-leinster/

Connacht
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/irish-dna-connacht/

Munster
https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/irish-dna-munster/

MitchellSince1893
01-06-2016, 07:48 PM
Could it be that men with non-R1b predicted haplogroups are more likely to confirm those predictions via SNP testing? You might be able to test that by checking if counties with a higher proportion of non-R1b men are over-represented compared to those with a lower proportion of non-R1b.

Mr Williamson, you are a smart man! :) I think you have hit the nail on the head.:beerchug:

I went to my original spreadsheet of British DNA by county Project which includes Wales, Ireland, Scotland, and England, but it should suffice for this experiment.

Overall there were 1921 samples in all of the British Isles that were in specific counties. Of these 1921, 1095 were confirmed via SNP testing for 56.9%, and 826 predicted. I didn't breakout R1b from R, but when you compare R to all non R haplotypes there is difference.

R: 1379 samples total, of which 743 are confirmed, for 53.9% of total.
Non R: 542 samples total, of which 352 are confirmed, 64.9% of total.

So Non R haplotypes are 11% more likely to have a confirmed SNP test compared to R haplotype, and thus will be over represented in the FTDNA data.

Congratulations on figuring that one out!

Williamson
01-06-2016, 07:58 PM
I do really like your maps. You did an amazing job. Do you have any interesting in extending them to the rest of the island?

MitchellSince1893
01-06-2016, 08:01 PM
I do really like your maps. You did an amazing job. Do you have any interesting in extending them to the rest of the island?

Thanks, I will eventually, but England wore me out. I need a little break first.

Heber
01-06-2016, 08:14 PM
I will eventually, but England wore me out. I need a little break first.

Thanks for creating a Pinterest board. It facilitates reposting maps of interest.
Which mapping platform have you used? I have experimented with ESRI with mixed results.
Howard Mathieson has some interesting surmname maps here:
https://www.pinterest.com/howardmathieson/surname-maps-ireland/
It might be interesting to combine surname and SNP analysis.

MitchellSince1893
01-06-2016, 08:17 PM
Thanks for creating a Pinterest board. It facilitates reposting maps of interest.
Which mapping platform have you used? I have experimented with ESRI with mixed results.
Howard Mathieson has some interesting surmname maps here:
https://www.pinterest.com/howardmathieson/surname-maps-ireland/

You are welcome. My ESRI arcmap license has expired, so I'm embarrassed to say I'm just doing it by hand using a bitmap of England I modify. I did use my cartography knowledge to create the maps...balance, placement, colors etc (ok the U152 vs DF27 is a little gawdy on the colors and I couldn't find a North symbol I liked).

If anyone wants to take the data and do frequency maps for England let me know. Like this one.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/c7/3e/c9/c73ec94f1560c6049b8767ac0278d477.jpg

MitchellSince1893
01-06-2016, 08:34 PM
It's not due to duplicate kits of the same lineage in the same county. I eliminated 100 samples so that I had none with the same or very similar surnames per county. However, the same surname could be in a neighboring county, but an over representation of a surname in neighboring counties would apply to all haplogroups.

Maybe Non R1b groups immigrated to North America in disproportionate numbers? If so, I'm not sure why this would happen.

Another possibility is non R1b FTDNA members are disproportionately participating in FTDNA projects?

Overall R1b comes out to 56.8% of the total.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/98/ba/ac/98baac6e22c62efe864eff541dd58c56.png

EDIT: I took a quick look at the overall R1b numbers and at least in Cornwall they appear to be in line with other studies. I will investigate further.

For example Balaresque et al. (2009) had Cornwall at 78.1%. I got 78.33%. They had 64 samples I had 60.

Balaresque et al. (2009) had Leicester at 62.4% R1b. I got 54.5% for Leicester but I only had 22 samples. They had 43 samples. Leicester was too small to count by itself so it's been combined in a region with Derbyshire and Northampton.

EDIT 2
I haven't been able to find the total numbers for the Balaresque et al. (2009) study yet. I believe this map might be from Balaresque et al. (2009)...not sure though. If so then yes the FTDNA numbers for R1b are lower in most regions compared to this study.
http://45.media.tumblr.com/dc53e838143c0e314d6a1ba57378fb7e/tumblr_nd8nqgoWCH1taoygto1_400.gif


EDIT 3: Myers and Busby combined got 64.4% for R1b (U106, L21, U152, P312 other) for England. 327 out of 508 samples. So again the FTDNA R1b numbers are lower, by 7.6% in this case.
Source https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=zimpEGGHFtrk.kVNIcV7mwmCA&hl=en_US

If one increases R1b by 11% based on post 15 above, then R1b would be ~63% of England

A.D.
02-16-2016, 04:52 PM
I'm not sure I2 should be classed as Germanic. I seems to have more Southern Alpine bias compared to I1. Nat Geo found places in Spain where I2 has linked with early farmers moving into the area. It has been suggested that it moved up the Rhine within the Celtic peoples. There are claims that it is way older than I1 so it could have moved in various amounts at any time possibly before the flooding of Doggerland. The only reason I mention it is it might have a greater bearing on your future work. I could be wrong but it's out there for the more knowledgeable guys to comment on. I have a question too, did you find any higher frequency of I1 in areas where fishing is or was particularly important.

Tomenable
03-01-2016, 12:42 AM
This map is a summary of the U106, R1a, I, I1, I2.

Why is I2 (and apparently all of it ?!) counted as Germanic there ??? I suppose that most of I2 in Britain is actually Pre-Celtic.

Even I2a2a-M223, which may be considered Germanic by some, based on modern frequencies, is Non-Germanic in aDNA record:

The oldest sample of I2a2a found so far is from Megalithic Culture (I2a2a1b2 from La Mina). Then in Copper Age Spain (El Portalón, El Mirador, Matojo) there are three samples of I2a2a, one of I2a2a2 and one of I2a2a1. From the Vatya culture and from Lánycsók Csata-alja in Hungary there is one I2a2a, one I2a2a1 and one I2a2a1a2a2. From Yamnaya/Catacomb in Russia there is one I2a2a1b1b2.

In total at least 10 prehistoric samples of I-M223 known so far, ranging from Spain to Russia. Why not in Pre-Celtic Britain too?

Some of it could also come with Steppe-admixed Celts, considering that it had been present in the Steppe before.

The range of Megalithic Culture (from which the oldest thus far known sample of I2a2a-M223 comes):

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-tiPnz1aKJ5o/TYIPwFnnJ1I/AAAAAAAABL4/or6BERLv5yk/s1600/Megalithic_Culture.png

What were Y-DNA haplogroups of Non-Indo-European Britain, if not predominantly I2 (like today in Sardinia*) ???

Even Maciamo from Eupedia admits that most of I2 in Britain is very ancient.

*Y-DNA in Sardinia (Francalacci et al. 2013) - 1204 samples:

a) Y-DNA other than R1b-M269, R1a-M198 and I1-M253:

I2a1a - 465
G2a - 131
E1b1b1 - 126
J2 - 98
J1c - 63
R1b1c - 29
T - 28
I2c - 11
I2a2a - 10
R2a1 - 10
L - 8
A1b1b2b - 7
F3 - 7
E1a1 - 6
I2a1b - 2
Q1a3c - 1

TOTAL: 1002 (including 488 I2 - or 48.7%)

b) Haplogroups R1b-M269, R1a-M198 and I1-M253:

R1b-M269 (total - 185):

- 10 samples of R1b-M269*
- 9 samples of R1b-L23*
- 3 samples of R1b-L151*
- 25 samples of R1b-P312*
- 4 samples of R1b-DF27
- 2 samples of R1b-L21
- 2 samples of R1b-L513
- 128 samples of R1b-U152
- 2 samples of R1b-U106

R1a-M198 (total - 15):

- 6 samples of R1a-M458
- 5 samples of R1a-Z280
- 4 samples of R1a-Z93

I1-M253 (total - 2).

GRAND TOTAL: 1204

Tomenable
03-01-2016, 01:11 AM
In Sardinia I2a2a is 2.5 times more numerous than R1b-U106 and I1-M253 combined.

Francalacci found 10 x I2a2, compared to only 2 x I1 and only 2 x U106 among Sardinians.

In Ireland I2a2 is just as numerous as I1, and two times more numerous than U106 or R1a.

There is no way it could all (perhaps not even most) be Germanic. Let alone other I2 clades.

I2a1 in Ireland = 2% (87 in a sample of ca. 4700) and great majority have Celtic surnames.

vettor
03-01-2016, 01:37 AM
Why is I2 (and apparently all of it ?!) counted as Germanic there ??? I suppose that most of I2 in Britain is actually Pre-Celtic.

Even I2a2a-M223, which may be considered Germanic by some, based on modern frequencies, is Non-Germanic in aDNA record:

The oldest sample of I2a2a found so far is from Megalithic Culture (I2a2a1b2 from La Mina). Then in Copper Age Spain (El Portalón, El Mirador, Matojo) there are three samples of I2a2a, one of I2a2a2 and one of I2a2a1. From the Vatya culture and from Lánycsók Csata-alja in Hungary there is one I2a2a, one I2a2a1 and one I2a2a1a2a2. From Yamnaya/Catacomb in Russia there is one I2a2a1b1b2.

In total at least 10 prehistoric samples of I-M223 known so far, ranging from Spain to Russia. Why not in Pre-Celtic Britain too?

Some of it could also come with Steppe-admixed Celts, considering that it had been present in the Steppe before.

The range of Megalithic Culture (from which the oldest thus far known sample of I2a2a-M223 comes):

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-tiPnz1aKJ5o/TYIPwFnnJ1I/AAAAAAAABL4/or6BERLv5yk/s1600/Megalithic_Culture.png

What were Y-DNA haplogroups of Non-Indo-European Britain, if not predominantly I2 (like today in Sardinia*) ???

Even Maciamo from Eupedia admits that most of I2 in Britain is very ancient.

*Y-DNA in Sardinia (Francalacci et al. 2013) - 1204 samples:

a) Y-DNA other than R1b-M269, R1a-M198 and I1-M253:

I2a1a - 465
G2a - 131
E1b1b1 - 126
J2 - 98
J1c - 63
R1b1c - 29
T - 28
I2c - 11
I2a2a - 10
R2a1 - 10
L - 8
A1b1b2b - 7
F3 - 7
E1a1 - 6
I2a1b - 2
Q1a3c - 1

TOTAL: 1002 (including 488 I2 - or 48.7%)

b) Haplogroups R1b-M269, R1a-M198 and I1-M253:

R1b-M269 (total - 185):

- 10 samples of R1b-M269*
- 9 samples of R1b-L23*
- 3 samples of R1b-L151*
- 25 samples of R1b-P312*
- 4 samples of R1b-DF27
- 2 samples of R1b-L21
- 2 samples of R1b-L513
- 2 samples of R1b-U106
- 128 samples of R1b-U152

R1a-M198 (total - 15):

- 6 samples of R1a-M458
- 5 samples of R1a-Z280
- 4 samples of R1a-Z93

I1-M253 (total - 2).

GRAND TOTAL: 1204


the problem you face with the I marker is it's association with J marker ............so, did I marker already breakoff from J and then head to Britain, or did I and J break apart in britain.
I understand that you are being subclade specific , is there a path taken

Same dilemma I have with the LT-P326 union

Gravetto-Danubian
03-01-2016, 01:46 AM
the problem you face with the I marker is it's association with J marker ............so, did I marker already breakoff from J and then head to Britain, or did I and J break apart in britain.
I understand that you are being subclade specific , is there a path taken

Same dilemma I have with the LT-P326 union

Vettor, of course I arrived to Britain independent of IJ. I'm surprised by the question tbh

IJ split 45 kya. The oldest surviving human lineages in Britain do not pre-date 10 kya (!) and these are likely I2a-M423-L161.
Then came I2a2 with middle -late Neolithic, possibly also the M26.
Then I1- with Germanic invasions, although I1 is, of course, not "Germanic" per se


Very nice maps by the way, Mitch. But I'd agree that calling all hg I "Germanic" is probably incorrect, not that it bothers me;)

Tomenable
03-01-2016, 02:04 AM
^ Yes, I think that a fair share of I2 in Britain must be "Stonehenge-builders", rather than Germanics.

Some typically Early Neolithic non-I2 haplogroups were most likely also there before IE immigration.

MitchellSince1893
03-01-2016, 06:43 AM
...This map is a summary of the U106, R1a, I, I1, I2. Possibly Anglo Saxon and Scandinavian dominated haplogroups. I guess one might call it the "Germanic" haplogroups.

Based on the above comments, I was mistaken to include I2 in this "Anglo-Saxon/Germanci group, so don't read too much into this. I wasn't familiar with the I2 haplgroup history.

The distribution pattern of I2 in England is one of the most consistent....10-14% in 8 regions, peaking in Norfolk. It looks like it came into England from the East or Southeast, based on the distribution as it's weakest on the Welsh and Scottish borders and SW England.

Gravetto-Danubian
03-01-2016, 07:09 AM
The distribution pattern of I2 in England is one of the most consistent....10-14% in 8 regions, peaking in Norfolk. It looks like it came into England from the East or Southeast, based on the distribution as it's weakest on the Welsh and Scottish borders and SW England.

Mitch any chance u can break it down (into M26, M423, M223) ? I know the low frequencies and a lack of resolution might be prohibitive, but lumping all I2 together would lead us astray, due to the previously mentioned stratification

Perhaps just a national average of each ?

vettor
03-01-2016, 09:29 AM
Vettor, of course I arrived to Britain independent of IJ. I'm surprised by the question tbh

IJ split 45 kya. The oldest surviving human lineages in Britain do not pre-date 10 kya (!) and these are likely I2a-M423-L161.
Then came I2a2 with middle -late Neolithic, possibly also the M26.
Then I1- with Germanic invasions, although I1 is, of course, not "Germanic" per se


Very nice maps by the way, Mitch. But I'd agree that calling all hg I "Germanic" is probably incorrect, not that it bothers me;)

would you have an idea on the I subclade of Britain in the Early Neolitihic period ( ENP ).........I was wanting to know how it stands with the central European I for the same ENP

Gravetto-Danubian
03-01-2016, 10:01 AM
would you have an idea on the I subclade of Britain in the Early Neolitihic period ( ENP ).........I was wanting to know how it stands with the central European I for the same ENP

I don't intend to clutter this thread with I2, but given that it is about England specifically, I might briefly recommend a hypothesis (that's all we can do given the lack of Neolithic Y DNA). In the Neolithic, there could have been several I lineages, in addition to the usual and predominant "Early Farmer" G and H2. This might include pre-existing Mesolithic groups (possibly some versions of M423). I'm not sure if Cardial groups reached Britain - but there is some 'Sardinian' M26 in British groups (but who knows when it arrived). It seems that from the middle Neolithic toward the Bronze Age, I2a2 groups are common over wide areas - as Tomenable mentioned- from Russia to probably Britain.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
03-01-2016, 12:16 PM
Based on the above comments, I was mistaken to include I2 in this "Anglo-Saxon/Germanci group, so don't read too much into this. I wasn't familiar with the I2 haplgroup history.

The distribution pattern of I2 in England is one of the most consistent....10-14% in 8 regions, peaking in Norfolk. It looks like it came into England from the East or Southeast, based on the distribution as it's weakest on the Welsh and Scottish borders and SW England.

If it arrived early, wonder why it is lower in the West and North?

MitchellSince1893
03-01-2016, 02:02 PM
Mitch any chance u can break it down (into M26, M423, M223) ? I know the low frequencies and a lack of resolution might be prohibitive, but lumping all I2 together would lead us astray, due to the previously mentioned stratification

Perhaps just a national average of each ?

Here is the raw data


Bedford I-P37
Bedford I-M26
Berkshire I-P37
Berkshire I-P78
Buckinghamshire I-L233
Buckinghamshire I-M223
Buckinghamshire I-M223
Buckinghamshire I-P78
Cambridgeshire I-L39
Cambridgeshire I-L233
Cambridgeshire I-M223
Cheshire I-M223
Cheshire I-P78
Cheshire I-M223
Cornwall I-M26
Cornwall I-L161
Cornwall I-L161
Cumberland I-M223
Derbyshire I-CTS1977
Derbyshire I-P37
Derbyshire I-Z171
Derbyshire I-CTS1858
Derbyshire I-P37
Devonshire I-M223
Devonshire I-P37
Devonshire I-CTS6433
Devonshire I-M284
Devonshire I-M223
Devonshire I-M223
Devonshire I-M284
Devonshire I-Y4751
Devonshire I-M223
Devonshire I-M223
Devonshire I-Z190
Dorset I-M223
Dorset I-Z102
Dorset I-P37
Durham I-L160
Durham I-L597
Essex I-M223
Essex I-L126
Essex I-FGC22153
Essex I-M223
Essex I-P37
Essex I-L126
Gloucestershire I-CTS6433
Gloucestershire I-L233
Gloucestershire I-L704
Gloucestershire I-M223
Gloucestershire I-M223
Gloucestershire I-P37
Hampshire I-L161
Hampshire I-M223
Hertfordshire I-M223
Hertfordshire I-Z161
Hertfordshire I-M284
Isle of Wight I-L39
Kent I-PF6896
Kent I-L38
Kent I-CTS1977
Kent I2>I-P37
Kent I-Z161
Kent I-Z190
Lancashire I-Y10660
Lancashire I-P37
Lancashire I-L161
Lancashire I-P37
Lancashire I-P37
Lancashire I-M223
Lancashire I-CTS6433
Leicestershire I-M223
Lincolnshire I-L160
Lincolnshire I-M223
Lincolnshire I-P37
Lincolnshire I-M223
Lincolnshire I-P78
Middlesex I-L39
Middlesex I-M223
Middlesex I-P37
Middlesex I-M223
Middlesex I-L158
Middlesex I-CTS7175
Middlesex I-M223
Middlesex I-L126
Norfolk I-M223
Norfolk I-P214
Norfolk I-P37
Norfolk I-P37
Norfolk I-M223
Norfolk I-L39
Norfolk I-M223
Norfolk I-L39
Norfolk I-M26
Norfolk I-P37
Norfolk I-CTS6433
Norfolk I-CTS6433
Northamptonshire I-CTS616
Northamptonshire I-M423
Northamptonshire I-M223
Northamptonshire I-L158
Northumberland I-M26
Northumberland I-PF6896
Northumberland I-M223
Northumberland I-L38
Northumberland I-P37
Northumberland I-P37
Nottinghamshire I-P78
Nottinghamshire I-L38
Nottinghamshire I-P217
Oxfordshire I-CTS616
Rutland I-CTS1977
Shropshire (Salop) I-P37
Shropshire (Salop) I-M223
Somerset I-P37
Somerset I-M223
Somerset I-L160
Somerset I-L38
Staffordshire I-P78
Staffordshire I-P37
Staffordshire I-Z166
Staffordshire I-L160
Staffordshire I-CTS616
Suffolk I-M223
Suffolk I-M284
Suffolk I-CTS1858
Suffolk I-L233
Suffolk I-M223
Suffolk I-P78
Suffolk I-L126
Suffolk I-M223
Surrey I-L233
Surrey I-F1295
Surrey I-M223
Surrey I-M223
Surrey I2>I-P37
Sussex I-M223
Sussex I2>I-P37
Sussex W I-M223
Warwickshire I-M223
Warwickshire I-L39
Wiltshire I-M223
Wiltshire I-PF4189
Wiltshire I-L126
Wiltshire I-M223
Worcestershire I-M223
Yorkshire I-M223
Yorkshire I-Y5692
Yorkshire I-M223
Yorkshire E/Riding I-L161
Yorkshire N/Riding I-M26
Yorkshire W/Riding I-L233
Yorkshire W/Riding I-CTS616
Yorkshire W/Riding I-P37
Yorkshire W/Riding I-P37
Yorkshire W/Riding I-P37
Yorkshire W/Riding I-M223
Yorkshire W/Riding I-M223
Yorkshire W/Riding I-M223
Yorkshire W/Riding I-L39
Yorkshire W/Riding I-M223
Yorkshire W/Riding I-M223

MitchellSince1893
03-01-2016, 08:39 PM
Putting I2 in the 20 geographic regions I previously defined

Bedford, Cambridge, Hertford:
I-P37
I-M26
I-L39
I-L233
I-M223
I-M223
I-Z161
I-M284

Berkshire, Buckingham, Oxford:
I-P37
I-P78
I-L233
I-M223
I-M223
I-P78
I-CTS616

Cornwall:
I-M26
I-L161
I-L161

Cumberland, Durham, Northumberland, Westmoreland:
I-M223
I-L160
I-L597
I-M26
I-PF6896
I-M223
I-L38
I-P37
I-P37

Derby, Leicester, Northampton:
I-CTS1977
I-P37
I-Z171
I-CTS1858
I-P37
I-M223
I-CTS616
I-M423
I-M223
I-L158

Devonshire:
I-M223
I-P37
I-CTS6433
I-M284
I-M223
I-M223
I-M284
I-Y4751
I-M223
I-M223
I-Z190

Dorset, Wiltshire:
I-M223
I-Z102
I-P37
I-M223
I-PF4189
I-L126
I-M223

Essex:
I-M223
I-L126
I-FGC22153
I-M223
I-P37
I-L126

Gloucester:
I-CTS6433
I-L233
I-L704
I-M223
I-M223
I-P37

Hampshire, IOW, Surrey, Sussex:
I-L161
I-M223
I-L39
I-L233
I-F1295
I-M223
I-M223
I-P37
I-M223
I-P37
I-M223

Hereford, Shropshire, Worcester:
I-P37
I-M223
I-M223

Kent:
I-PF6896
I-L38
I-CTS1977
I-P37
I-Z161
I-Z190

Lancashire & Cheshire:
I-M223
I-P78
I-M223
I-Y10660
I-P37
I-L161
I-P37
I-P37
I-M223
I-CTS6433

Lincoln, Nottingham, & Rutland:
I-L160
I-M223
I-P37
I-M223
I-P78
I-P78
I-L38
I-P217
I-CTS1977

Middlesex:
I-L39
I-M223
I-P37
I-M223
I-L158
I-CTS7175
I-M223
I-L126

Norfolk:
I-M223
I-P214
I-P37
I-P37
I-M223
I-L39
I-M223
I-L39
I-M26
I-P37
I-CTS6433
I-CTS6433

Somerset:
I-P37
I-M223
I-L160
I-L38

Stafford & Warwick:
I-P78
I-P37
I-Z166
I-L160
I-CTS616
I-M223
I-L39

Suffolk:
I-M223
I-M284
I-CTS1858
I-L233
I-M223
I-P78
I-L126
I-M223

Yorkshire:
I-M223
I-Y5692
I-M223
I-L161
I-M26
I-L233
I-CTS616
I-P37
I-P37
I-P37
I-M223
I-M223
I-M223
I-L39
I-M223
I-M223

Gravetto-Danubian
03-01-2016, 09:37 PM
Putting I2 in the 20 geographic regions I previously defined

Bedford, Cambridge, Hertford:
I-P37
I-M26
I-L39
I-L233
I-M223
I-M223
I-Z161
I-M284

Berkshire, Buckingham, Oxford:
I-P37
I-P78
I-L233
I-M223
I-M223
I-P78
I-CTS616

Cornwall:
I-M26
I-L161
I-L161

Cumberland, Durham, Northumberland, Westmoreland:
I-M223
I-L160
I-L597
I-M26
I-PF6896
I-M223
I-L38
I-P37
I-P37

Derby, Leicester, Northampton:
I-CTS1977
I-P37
I-Z171
I-CTS1858
I-P37
I-M223
I-CTS616
I-M423
I-M223
I-L158

Devonshire:
I-M223
I-P37
I-CTS6433
I-M284
I-M223
I-M223
I-M284
I-Y4751
I-M223
I-M223
I-Z190

Dorset, Wiltshire:
I-M223
I-Z102
I-P37
I-M223
I-PF4189
I-L126
I-M223

Essex:
I-M223
I-L126
I-FGC22153
I-M223
I-P37
I-L126

Gloucester:
I-CTS6433
I-L233
I-L704
I-M223
I-M223
I-P37

Hampshire, IOW, Surrey, Sussex:
I-L161
I-M223
I-L39
I-L233
I-F1295
I-M223
I-M223
I-P37
I-M223
I-P37
I-M223

Hereford, Shropshire, Worcester:
I-P37
I-M223
I-M223

Kent:
I-PF6896
I-L38
I-CTS1977
I-P37
I-Z161
I-Z190

Lancashire & Cheshire:
I-M223
I-P78
I-M223
I-Y10660
I-P37
I-L161
I-P37
I-P37
I-M223
I-CTS6433

Lincoln, Nottingham, & Rutland:
I-L160
I-M223
I-P37
I-M223
I-P78
I-P78
I-L38
I-P217
I-CTS1977

Middlesex:
I-L39
I-M223
I-P37
I-M223
I-L158
I-CTS7175
I-M223
I-L126

Norfolk:
I-M223
I-P214
I-P37
I-P37
I-M223
I-L39
I-M223
I-L39
I-M26
I-P37
I-CTS6433
I-CTS6433

Somerset:
I-P37
I-M223
I-L160
I-L38

Stafford & Warwick:
I-P78
I-P37
I-Z166
I-L160
I-CTS616
I-M223
I-L39

Suffolk:
I-M223
I-M284
I-CTS1858
I-L233
I-M223
I-P78
I-L126
I-M223

Yorkshire:
I-M223
I-Y5692
I-M223
I-L161
I-M26
I-L233
I-CTS616
I-P37
I-P37
I-P37
I-M223
I-M223
I-M223
I-L39
I-M223
I-M223


Nice ! If you tell me the denominator; I can tally those up into major subclades later today , Mitch
I'm guessing you only included well resolved kits ?

MitchellSince1893
03-02-2016, 12:08 AM
Nice ! If you tell me the denominator; I can tally those up into major subclades later today , Mitch
I'm guessing you only included well resolved kits ?

Not sure what you mean by the denominator. There were 161 total for I2 in England out of 1830.

Here is the total for each region for all haplogroups

Bedford, Cambridge, Hertford 80
Berkshire, Buckingham, Oxford, 68
Cornwall 60
Cumberland, Durham, Northumberland, Westmoreland 117
Derby, Leicester, Northampton 85
Devonshire 151
Dorset, Wiltshire 68
Essex 60
Gloucester 62
Hampshire, IOW, Surrey, Sussex 91
Hereford, Shropshire, Worcester 65
Kent 66
Lancashire & Cheshire 132
Lincoln, Nottingham, & Rutland 89
Middlesex 138
Norfolk 73
Somerset 69
Stafford & Warwick 96
Suffolk 101
Yorkshire 159

I only included tested SNPs from ftdna projects...the ones in green text. So if it was only tested to I2 or the level below then that's what I had to work with.

Gravetto-Danubian
03-03-2016, 10:06 PM
Not sure what you mean by the denominator. There were 161 total for I2 in England out of 1830.

Here is the total for each region for all haplogroups

Bedford, Cambridge, Hertford 80
Berkshire, Buckingham, Oxford, 68
Cornwall 60
Cumberland, Durham, Northumberland, Westmoreland 117
Derby, Leicester, Northampton 85
Devonshire 151
Dorset, Wiltshire 68
Essex 60
Gloucester 62
Hampshire, IOW, Surrey, Sussex 91
Hereford, Shropshire, Worcester 65
Kent 66
Lancashire & Cheshire 132
Lincoln, Nottingham, & Rutland 89
Middlesex 138
Norfolk 73
Somerset 69
Stafford & Warwick 96
Suffolk 101
Yorkshire 159

I only included tested SNPs from ftdna projects...the ones in green text. So if it was only tested to I2 or the level below then that's what I had to work with.

Thanks Mitch
Looking at your data, and the 2003 study by Capelli, it seems that I2a comprises 5- 15% on English Y DNA, but on average about 8%.
In turn, the overwhelming majority of this I2a is represented by I2a2 - M223 and derived lineages; which is relatively prevalent in nowadays NW Europe (Germany, Netherlands, parts of Scandinavia up to 20%) but has a solid frequency of ~ 10% throughout central Europe, to Russia and Albania (but with nadir in the Dinaric mountains).

horncastle
03-05-2016, 09:13 AM
Excellent observation John. It suggests Mitch is mistaken about being mistaken. I think essentially he is right. The i2 map is very clear and suggests a late influx of i2. The last large influx was the Norman conquest 1066 which was a mix of Normans Flemings and Bretons. One of the maps supplied show a concentration of i2 in Brittany. A minority of i2 in England is ancient, the majority arrived from Brittany and the interior of Normandy and arrived late 1066. So whilst i2 is not Germanic most of it in England arrived with the germanic invasions. Mitch's map shows this superbly

Tomenable
03-05-2016, 09:55 AM
Based on modern frequency of R1b-M269, we could say that it expanded from Western Europe towards the Steppe, not the other way around. Claiming things about I2 based on modern frequencies is exactly the same fallacy. If anything, use diversity, not frequency. Of course I2 expanded from the continent to the British Isles, we just don't know when exactly. But probably most of it came before Bell Beakers.

MitchellSince1893
03-05-2016, 01:37 PM
In light of this new information (new to me), with I2a2 being prevalent in Germany, Netherlands and Scandinavia, why wouldn't it be part of the Anglo-Saxon arrival (along with I1 and U106) rather than primarily Norman?

When I look at the distribution map I can't help but think it looks rather "Anglo-Saxon", supplemented by Danelaw, and Normans.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/2c/a5/62/2ca5624c386710760ecddeb4e5245f08.png

http://www.thehistoryofenglish.com/pics/heptarchy.gif


And it also looks similar to the POBI autosomal Central and South England results (red squares in map below)
http://www.well.ox.ac.uk/_asset/image/pobi-map-jpg.jpeg

horncastle
03-05-2016, 04:38 PM
Frequencies are facts not fallacies, we then need to explain them taking into account other factors where we might have more information. For instance lets take one case from my surname project in FTDNA the Langtons of Langton by Spilsby in Lincolnshire who are Norman landowners probably originating in Brittany, they clearly did not arrive early. Moreover we have three other independent lines with the same name in Leicestershire, Nottinghamshire and Ireland these are also not early. Interestingly these locations fit well with Mitch's map. Most of i2 in England arrived in 1066 so we do know the date, but not all of it.

horncastle
03-05-2016, 04:52 PM
Yes it does look like the anglo-saxon map for 650 but that wasn't the end of the anglo saxon advance. if you look at the map for 850 it doesn't fit because that would include Devon, the welsh Marches, Lancashire and a large chunk of south west scotland which fails to appear on maps. We are presumably not suggesting the anglo saxons left their i2 component behind in 650. This is of course why we are eagerly anticipating your further analysis on Wales and Scotland. Great stuff Mitch.

MitchellSince1893
03-16-2016, 02:15 AM
Yes it does look like the anglo-saxon map for 650 but that wasn't the end of the anglo saxon advance. if you look at the map for 850 it doesn't fit because that would include Devon, the welsh Marches, Lancashire and a large chunk of south west scotland which fails to appear on maps. We are presumably not suggesting the anglo saxons left their i2 component behind in 650. This is of course why we are eagerly anticipating your further analysis on Wales and Scotland. Great stuff Mitch.

Just came across this article from last year on the POBI. It's saying that autosomally, Britain looks much like it it did in 600AD


Geneticist Professor Sir Walter Bodmer of Oxford University said: “What it shows is the extraordinary stability of the British population. Britain hasn’t changed much since 600AD
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/11480732/Britons-still-live-in-Anglo-Saxon-tribal-kingdoms-Oxford-University-finds.html

And from the POBI supplementary data

The similarity between the genetic clusters in Fig. 1, and the geo-political boundaries in Fig. 3c (600, after the major Saxon migrations) is noteworthy. Regions of Britain outside those most directly controlled by the Romans maintained much of their local identity, even under Roman rule. These may well have resumed their tribal identities with the collapse of Roman control, in turn maintaining some degree of isolation from neighbouring groups. Most were not directly affected by the large-scale Saxon migrations from 450-500, and only came under Saxon control much later, if at all. Comparing Figs. 1 and 3c shows UK genetic clusters located in roughly the region of the kingdoms of Rheged (Cumbria, white triangles), Elmet (W Yorkshire, blue triangles), Dalriada (N Ire./W Scotland, light green triangles), Gwynedd (N Wales, green squares), Dyfed (N Pembrokeshire, pink squares and S Pembrokeshire, yellow inverted triangles), and Dumnonia (two groups: Cornwall, pink crosses, and Devon, blue circles, see Fig. 1). Following the expansions into Scotland from the kingdom of Dalriada in the west, and the Saxons from the south, the Picts were restricted to the northeast9, although the numerical scale of this movement is not known. Nevertheless, this movement of Picts might possibly be reflected in one or both of the two UK clusters observed in northeast Scotland (NE Scotland 1, white squares and NE Scotland 2, pink circles). As Fig. 3c illustrates, there was a linguistic barrier between the Saxon regions and the rest of the UK, where various Celtic languages were spoken, some of which still survive. It is also noteworthy that the large Cent./S England cluster (red squares) largely coincides with the region of the UK under most direct Roman control (Fig. 3b), and is close to the region under Saxon control in 600 (Fig. 3c). Plausibly the effect of Roman control was to break down the Iron Age tribal entities in the region (Extended Data Fig. 7b), and hence to reduce geo-political barriers to movement, as well as facilitating movement through improved roads, and encouraging it through limited urbanisation (which declined after the Roman period). Saxon control of roughly the same area, although at times divided into several large kingdoms, did not reintroduce many geo-political barriers to movement. There are several examples in Fig. 1 of clusters occupying the same geographical area, including in Northern Ireland (N Ire./S Scotland, N Ire./W Scotland) and northern England (Cumbria, Northumbria, and N Ire./S Scotland). Genetic clusters in the same area will lose their distinctiveness over time through intermarriage, unless mating occurs largely or exclusively within clusters. This could occur for human populations if there are linguistic, religious, or other cultural barriers between the groups. This may well account for the overlapping clusters in Northern Ireland.

http://s.telegraph.co.uk/graphics/MobileSwitcher/v2/images/816-14267045631796800873.png



As I said earlier, I2, which was prevalent in Saxons, meshes well with this map.

Could it also help us identify other correlations between haplogroups and tribal groups?

From a U152 hotspot perspective, the Cumbria cluster is the one I'm most curious about, followed by the Northumberland and West Yorkshire clusters.

ADW_1981
03-16-2016, 02:22 AM
I think stating "I2" is too general. I1 was most definitely among Germanic speakers, I2-M223 probably to a lesser extent. There are branches of I2 such as M26, M423 (UK type), and I2-P37* that weren't necessarily frequent among Anglo-Saxons.

MitchellSince1893
03-16-2016, 02:43 AM
I think stating "I2" is too general. I1 was most definitely among Germanic speakers, I2-M223 probably to a lesser extent. There are branches of I2 such as M26, M423 (UK type), and I2-P37* that weren't necessarily frequent among Anglo-Saxons.

I was being lazy :)

I'm referring to the I2 that would be identified coming from Saxon, or Angle, or Jute homeland areas. This map is probably using old terminology but it labels I2b as "Saxon". I'm assuming this is the same as what Gravetto-Danubian referred to here as I2a or I2a2
the overwhelming majority of this I2a is represented by I2a2 - M223 and derived lineages; which is relatively prevalent in nowadays NW Europe (Germany, Netherlands, parts of Scandinavia up to 20%)

http://www.wykop.pl/cdn/c3201142/comment_nohSTtBQAXsUHXuhtxGFvlmgy9TS6Mr2.jpg

horncastle
06-22-2016, 09:57 AM
Mitch you may find some more material here in the new England GB Haplogroups project https://www.familytreedna.com/public/EnglandGBGroupseijNorman?iframe=ycolorized

horncastle
06-23-2016, 06:25 AM
Perhaps just M223 and P37 that would be useful. I think the origins of i2 are particularly complex

Tomenable
08-13-2016, 01:55 AM
Overall there were 1921 samples in all of the British Isles that were in specific counties. Of these 1921, 1095 were confirmed via SNP testing for 56.9%, and 826 predicted. I didn't breakout R1b from R, but when you compare R to all non R haplotypes there is difference.

R: 1379 samples total, of which 743 are confirmed, for 53.9% of total.
Non R: 542 samples total, of which 352 are confirmed, 64.9% of total.

So Non R haplotypes are 11% more likely to have a confirmed SNP test compared to R haplotype, and thus will be over represented in the FTDNA data.

Does it mean that R1a is also underrepresented in the data that you used, or only R1b?

You got ca. 4% of R1a in England, but in reality it is probably closer to 5% in such case.

MitchellSince1893
08-13-2016, 02:44 PM
Does it mean that R1a is also underrepresented in the data that you used, or only R1b?

You got ca. 4% of R1a in England, but in reality it is probably closer to 5% in such case.


Mr Williamson, you are a smart man! :) I think you have hit the nail on the head.:beerchug:

I went to my original spreadsheet of British DNA by county Project which includes Wales, Ireland, Scotland, and England, but it should suffice for this experiment.

Overall there were 1921 samples in all of the British Isles that were in specific counties. Of these 1921, 1095 were confirmed via SNP testing for 56.9%, and 826 predicted. I didn't breakout R1b from R, but when you compare R to all non R haplotypes there is difference.

R: 1379 samples total, of which 743 are confirmed, for 53.9% of total.
Non R: 542 samples total, of which 352 are confirmed, 64.9% of total.

So Non R haplotypes are 11% more likely to have a confirmed SNP test compared to R haplotype, and thus will be over represented in the FTDNA data.

Congratulations on figuring that one out!

Previously I didn't break out R1b from R1a, but I just went back and looked at R1a. Because the sample size is much smaller, it's more susceptible to error. With that caveat, and using the same methodology as quoted above:

R1a seems to be over represented compared to R1b.
R1a: 52 samples total, of which 34 were confirmed via SNP testing, 65.4% of total.
R1b: 1327 samples total, of which 709 were confirmed via SNP testing, 53.4% of total.

So compared to R1b, R1a was 12% more likely to have a confirmed SNP test, and thus was over represented in the FTDNA data I used.

Keep in mind my average year of birth for the US centric data base was ~1700 AD or pre industrial Britain. It wouldn't be a surprise if Britain has more R1a today than 300 years ago.

Tomenable
08-13-2016, 04:15 PM
Did you check what are the most common clades of R1a in your sample? For example Z284 vs. L664?

I wonder if British Celts could have some R1a already before Anglo-Saxon and Norse incursions.

=========

Edit:


R1a: 52 samples total, of which 34 were confirmed via SNP testing

Wait... 52 samples total, not 72 samples total ??? :

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6154-Y-DNA-Haplogroup-Percentages-and-maps-for-England-Source-FTDNA-Y-DNA-projects&p=131764&viewfull=1#post131764

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/aa/ed/e2/aaede28b745c1f129f2c354e9878362b.png

Tomenable
08-13-2016, 04:19 PM
34 out of 72 would be only 47.2% thus making R1a even more underrepresented than R1b.

MitchellSince1893
08-13-2016, 04:20 PM
Did you check what are the most common clades of R1a in your sample? For example Z284 vs. L664?

I wonder if British Celts could have some R1a already before Anglo-Saxon and Norse incursions.

=========

Edit:



Wait... 52 samples total, not 72 ??? :

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/aa/ed/e2/aaede28b745c1f129f2c354e9878362b.png

52 samples were in the FTDNA British DNA by County project. I used this project to determine the potential testing bias as all data was in one project. This project was my starting point.

I subsequently ended up with 72 samples after searching through hundreds of other FTDNA projects.

Here are the 72 samples
R1a
R-CTS2243
R-CTS3402
R-CTS4179
R-CTS4179
R-CTS4179
R-CTS4179
R-CTS4179
R-CTS5768
R-CTS8277
R-CTS8277
R-CTS8448
R-FGC2555
R-L1029
R-L448
R-L448
R-L448
R-L664
R-L664
R-L664
R-L664
R-L664
R-L664
R-L664
R-M17
R-M17
R-M17
R-M198
R-M198
R-M198
R-M198
R-M198
R-M198
R-M198
R-M198
R-M198
R-M198
R-M198
R-M198
R-M198
R-M198
R-M198
R-M198
R-M198
R-M198
R-M198
R-M198
R-M198
R-M417
R-M417
R-S24902
R-S4458
R-SRY10831
R-SRY10831
R-SRY10831
R-SRY10831
R-SRY10831
R-YP355
R-YP355
R-YP386
R-YP386
R-YP445
R-Z280
R-Z280
R-Z282
R-Z283
R-Z283
R-Z287
R-Z93
R-Z94
R-Z94
R-Z94

Tomenable
08-13-2016, 04:21 PM
Thanks! :)

MitchellSince1893
08-13-2016, 04:29 PM
Thanks! :)

If you go back and look at the British DNA by county project I bet many of these have completed additional testing.

For those not in that project, here are the 72 R1a FTDNA samples. If you are so inclined you can google them to see if they have done further SNP testing


275464
N70107
48615
199314
5776
N33188
U2146
176724
35372
336475
19765
40651
46500
253025
227747
231736
62923
67404
N55006
70909
268077
323276
170526
194860
9913
64082
24843
100627
61585
N55368
80286
N58300
89977
268194
N14730
72986
110259
N44543
77252
N40026
77616
N13959
122892
156035
69105
72027
78328
117456
224736
5780
119558
37471
18988
32139
14029
52317
9350
188683
249077
266757
179827
104772
H1272
128378
102216
198114
N50360
254393
92134
223765
127747
21365

E.g. google

127747 "y-dna classic", click on the link to the FTDNA Baltic Sea or Straigis project and you can see his latest y-dna haplgroup

In this example it's "R-YP1360"

Tomenable
08-13-2016, 04:54 PM
For those not in that project, here are the 72 R1a FTDNA samples.

Thanks again! Are they listed in the same order as those SNPs in post #51?

For example, is kit 21365 the last Z94 from the list in post #51 ???

===============

In your list from post #51 we have the following major clades:

R1a-Z284 = 17 samples:

R-CTS4179 - 5
R-L448 - 3
R-YP386 - 2
R-YP355 - 2
R-CTS2243 - 1
R-CTS8277 - 2
R-S4458 - 1
R-Z287 - 1

R1a-L664 = 8 samples:

R-L664 - 7
R-CTS5768 - 1

R1a-Z280 = 5 samples:

R-Z280 - 2
R-CTS3402 - 1
R-FGC2555 - 1
R-S24902 - 1

R1a-M458 = 2 samples:

R-L1029 - 1
R-YP445 - 1

Unspecified Z283 = 3:

R-Z283 - 2
R-Z282 - 1

R1a-CTS6 (Jewish) = 1:

R-CTS8448 - 1

R1a-Z93 = 4 samples:

R-Z93 - 1
R-Z94 - 3

Unspecified R1a = 32:

R-SRY10831 - 5
R-M17 - 3
R-M198 - 21
R-M417 - 2
R1a - 1

MitchellSince1893
08-13-2016, 04:57 PM
Thanks again! Are they listed in the same order as those SNPs in post #51?

For example, is kit 21365 the last Z94 from the list in post #51 ???

===============

In your list from post #51 we have the following major clades:

R1a-Z284 = 17 samples:

R-CTS4179 - 5
R-L448 - 3
R-YP386 - 2
R-YP355 - 2
R-CTS2243 - 1
R-CTS8277 - 2
R-S4458 - 1
R-Z287 - 1

R1a-L664 = 8 samples:

R-L664 - 7
R-CTS5768 - 1

R1a-Z280 = 5 samples:

R-Z280 - 2
R-CTS3402 - 1
R-FGC2555 - 1
R-S24902 - 1

R1a-M458 = 2 samples:

R-L1029 - 1
R-YP445 - 1

Unspecified Z283 = 3:

R-Z283 - 2
R-Z282 - 1

R1a-CTS6 (Jewish) = 1:

R-CTS8448 - 1

R1a-Z93 = 4 samples:

R-Z93 - 1
R-Z94 - 3

Unspecified R1a = 32:

R-SRY10831 - 5
R-M17 - 3
R-M198 - 21
R-M417 - 2
R1a - 1

Yes ...in same order...pm sent.